[Deck] The EPIC Elf Survival

[evilfred]

Hi all! I've recently fall in love with Survival of the Fittest. The synergy it got with elves is incredible. I don't pretend my build is better than the other ones cause there's a lot of them. I got kicked out of the New and Developmental Decks Forum and told to come here.

I've seen a couple version of this deck on deckcheck.net but I really don't like them. So to begin here's my list:

Land (18)
6 x Forest
4 x Taiga
4 x Windswept Heath
4 x Wooded Foothills

Combo (11)
1 x Empyrial Archangel
1 x Progenitus
1 x Norwood Priestess
4 x Natural Order
4 x Survival of the Fittest

Green Creatures (29)
1 x Caller of the Claw
3 x Elvish Champion
4 x Imperious Perfect
4 x Fyndhorn Elves
4 x Llanowar Elves
4 x Priest of Titania
2 x Quirion Ranger
1 x Sylvan Messenger
1 x Wickerbough Elder
1 x Wirewood Symbiote
1 x Wood Elves
3 x Wren's Run Vanquisher

Red Creatures (2)
1 x Anger
1 x Squee, Goblin Nabob

Sideboard (Totally a meta call)
4 x Thorn of Amethyst
3 x Tormod's Crypt
2 x Umezawa's Jitte
4 x Krosan Grip
1 x Vexing Shusher
1 x Magus of the Moon

Natural Order + Progenitus or Empyrial Archangel: Nothing to add here

Norwood Priestess: Backup plan when you're stuck with Progenitus or Empyrial Archangel in your hand. Also work very well if you don't have Natural Order in your hand. Great synergy with the "untap elves" creatures too.
With Survival of the Fittess in play and the Norwood Priestess, it's often only an easy math problem to get Progenitus AND Empyrial Archangel in play in the same turn. I know this seem a little overkill but I'm sure that Natural Order players around here lost a couple games even with a Progenitus in play. This is a good way to stop your opponent dead in it's track.

Now your wondering why I didn't pick Elvish Piper. Well I guest it work. Even with his ability to throw creature at instant speed. The only thing is the cost of his activation. Norwood Priestess got a cc of 2GG and the Piper 3G + G per activation. So I prefer to keep my mana for Survival.

Wickerbough Elder: I prefer this over the Viridian Zealot or Harmonic Sliver because it got a 4/4 body (after his activation). Go over Trinisphere and Chalice easily.

Sylvan Messenger: Only one you say?! Well yeah. I never enjoy to draw 2 copy of it. Sometimes when I need card draw I'll just go fetch it with survival.

Wood Elves: In case they wasteland your Taiga and you got anger in the graveyard. It's a quick and good solution.

Caller of the Claw This is also a metagame call.

Any suggestion are welcomed.

[Esper3k]

Welcome to the thread, Evilfred.

Do you ever find that you have problems protecting the Norwood Priestess or that she's too slow?

Just curious, but how do you deal with red sweepers/removal since you're not playing white (and can't play Absolute Law in the board)?

I feel the white splash makes the deck overall stronger because it gives you access to Absolute Law/Teeg in the board and Mirror Entity/Harmonic Sliver in the main as well. The Mirror Entity combo gives you just another way to win if you can't Lord or Progenitus your way to victory.

I've been a fan of Harmonic Sliver in testing since he actually costs you less mana than the Zealot. Wickerbough Elder just seems... slow to me? He costs you 3GG to do the same thing as Harmonic Sliver. Sure he's got a bigger body, but have you found that to really be that useful? Whenever I Survival for Harmonic, it's when I want to immediately bust an enchantment/artifact that's giving me problems.

[Di]

@ Evilfred list

It's a good starting point, but there's some issues I have with it:

Norwood Priestess is cute, but unnecessary. A 4cc 1/1 isn't going to make the cut when it is incredibly situational. If you have Survival, then that play is incredibly win-more. If you don't, then you have to somehow manage to have both Priestess and Progenitus, both singletons, in hand. The odds of that happening are incredibly slim and not worth the slot. However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that it at least does dodge Counterbalance and allows you to circumvent that, but at that point you're better off just killing it rather than working around it.

The single Sylvan Messenger is very weak too. You run 18 lands, 4 Survival, 4 Natural Order, Squee, Anger, Progenitus, Angel, Symbiote, and Wickerbough Elder. That's 32 cards, more than half of the deck. Even though it's a singleton, it's there as a card advantage engine, but you will almost never be able to get more than 2 elves with it. It's far too inconsistent to really justify running. At that point, you can also cut Wirewood Symbiote as well.

You run 4 Taiga and 8 fetchlands, so you shouldn't ever have an issue finding a red source for Anger, even if they Wasteland the first one. That said, Wood Elves isn't necessary. Unless you're running 3cc+ with needs to find colors, such as needing Savannah to cast Mirror Entity, Wood Elves is slow and a waste of a slot.

I've been unhappy with Viridian Zealot getting hit by Counterbalance so I've looked for other options, including Wickerbough Elder. He's just too slow. It isn't just Counterbalance that's a problem, but other stuff like Dreadnought, Jitte, Pernicious Deed, etc. Elder is too slow to deal with them in a reasonable amount of time, so the best solution is Harmonic Sliver. I really dislike Sliver because of it's reliance on white and weak body, but it's the best card we have to handle stuff.


On the Tarmogoyf issue, it's like a necessary evil. A lot of times when it's in the deck is garbage compared to the rest of my board, but then sometimes it's gold. Then I end up cutting it to improve synergy with the deck, and I run into 100 situations where I need it. It's just a bit difficult to find room for it, but it depends on how you build the deck now. My own list has changed a bit over the last month to adapt to some of the problems I've had. I won't post it right now as it isn't anything concrete, but I can at least mention it's worth having Mastcore in the deck somewhere between the maindeck and sideboard. At Chicago I was really craving a removal card and Wren's Run Vanquisher didn't really accomplish that, and Masticore is exactly the card the deck wants.

[Elf_Ascetic]

After some testing with and without goyfs, I now play 3 in my deck, sigh...

[evilfred]

@ Evilfred list

It's a good starting point, but there's some issues I have with it:

Norwood Priestess is cute, but unnecessary. A 4cc 1/1 isn't going to make the cut when it is incredibly situational. If you have Survival, then that play is incredibly win-more. If you don't, then you have to somehow manage to have both Priestess and Progenitus, both singletons, in hand. The odds of that happening are incredibly slim and not worth the slot. However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that it at least does dodge Counterbalance and allows you to circumvent that, but at that point you're better off just killing it rather than working around it.

I admit that the Norwood Priestess is situational. So here's the pros and cons:
PROS:
- Can't counter creatures played via the Priestess. (Except with Stifle)
- It's the fifth Natural Order that you can fetch with Survival.
- The "Untaping Creatures" allow you to untap it to maximise her potencial.
- When you have Survival in play and the Norwood Priestess the cost to get Progenitus and the Archangel in play is GG plus 2 creatures to be discarded.
- Save you mana to play your other elves.

CONS:
- It's a 1/1 for 2GG
- Run in the deck as a singleton

The single Sylvan Messenger is very weak too. You run 18 lands, 4 Survival, 4 Natural Order, Squee, Anger, Progenitus, Angel, Symbiote, and Wickerbough Elder. That's 32 cards, more than half of the deck. Even though it's a singleton, it's there as a card advantage engine, but you will almost never be able to get more than 2 elves with it. It's far too inconsistent to really justify running. At that point, you can also cut Wirewood Symbiote as well.

You're totally right about the Sylvan Messenger, I'd rather play 3 tarmogoyf instead. The Wirewood Symbiote is too good (to my taste) to be cut out. I'll keep playtesting to see if it's worth it.

You run 4 Taiga and 8 fetchlands, so you shouldn't ever have an issue finding a red source for Anger, even if they Wasteland the first one. That said, Wood Elves isn't necessary. Unless you're running 3cc+ with needs to find colors, such as needing Savannah to cast Mirror Entity, Wood Elves is slow and a waste of a slot.

Done, gone!

I've been unhappy with Viridian Zealot getting hit by Counterbalance so I've looked for other options, including Wickerbough Elder. He's just too slow. It isn't just Counterbalance that's a problem, but other stuff like Dreadnought, Jitte, Pernicious Deed, etc. Elder is too slow to deal with them in a reasonable amount of time, so the best solution is Harmonic Sliver. I really dislike Sliver because of it's reliance on white and weak body, but it's the best card we have to handle stuff.

Harmonic Sliver is better. Your right again.

On the Tarmogoyf issue, it's like a necessary evil. A lot of times when it's in the deck is garbage compared to the rest of my board, but then sometimes it's gold. Then I end up cutting it to improve synergy with the deck, and I run into 100 situations where I need it. It's just a bit difficult to find room for it, but it depends on how you build the deck now. My own list has changed a bit over the last month to adapt to some of the problems I've had. I won't post it right now as it isn't anything concrete, but I can at least mention it's worth having Mastcore in the deck somewhere between the maindeck and sideboard. At Chicago I was really craving a removal card and Wren's Run Vanquisher didn't really accomplish that, and Masticore is exactly the card the deck wants.

I think I'll put the Masticore in the sideboard.

*EDIT*
Yeah, after playtesting Norwood Priestess suck a little. I never end up going for her with survival. I reread the whole tread (most of it since Natural Order was included in the deck) and revamped my deck. ESG and Packmaster are going in. I left the Norwood Priestess discution for posterity.

NEW AND UPDATED LIST 04-23-2009


Lands (18)
2 x Savannah
2 x Taiga
4 x Windswept Heath
6 x Forest
4 x Wooded Foothills

NO Combo (5)
1 x Progenitus
4 x Natural Order

Survival Engine (6)
4 x Survival of the Fittest
1 x Anger
1 x Squee, Goblin Nabob

Other Creatures (6)
1 x Mirror Entity
1 x Harmonic Sliver
1 x Wirewood Symbiote
3 x Tarmogoyf

Elves (25)
4 x Elvish Spirit Guide
3 x Elvish Champion
4 x Fyndhorn Elves
4 x Imperious Perfect
3 x Llanowar Elves
4 x Priest of Titania
2 x Quirion Ranger
1 x Wren's Run Packmaster

Sideboard (15)
2 x Tormod's Crypt
1 x Caller of the Claw
4 x Krosan Grip
3 x Gaddock Teeg
3 x Absolute Law
1 x Masticore
1 x Vexing Shusher

[beastman]

If your running the version with natural order, and not mirror entity, what do all of you think about symbiote? Is it still a necessary inclusion in the deck even though its not an elf?

[troopatroop]

If your running the version with natural order, and not mirror entity, what do all of you think about symbiote? Is it still a necessary inclusion in the deck even though its not an elf?

If you're not playing Mirror Entity, Symbiote gets cut, imo.

[Di]

If your running the version with natural order, and not mirror entity, what do all of you think about symbiote? Is it still a necessary inclusion in the deck even though its not an elf?

The only reasons for Wirewood Symbiote's inclusion is either for Mirror Entity, Sylvan Messenger (and then again, that's really only if you run multiples) and maybe if you're looking to heavily abuse 187 creatures, which we really don't have any to abuse. Otherwise, it's almost strictly inferior to Quirion Ranger. The fact it isn't an elf really hurts when trying to ramp up mana in the early game. The deck has been rising with non-elf cards as of late in order to adapt to hate and other issues, and it's turning into a problem with the deck's synergy and consistency. It's important we still try to maximize the number of elves to take full advantage of Priest and lords, and Symbiote doesn't do enough without another supplemental combo piece to be worth running. If you really insist on running a Symbiote then I think Mirror Entity needs to be included, not only for the sake of the combo, but because Mirror Entity will at least make your other creatures elves and help you create synergy.

[Atwa]

I'm going to test Qasali Pridemage in my list. Zealot, although an Elf, does a very bad job at it's prime reason to be played (getting rid of Plague), and I hate the fact that with Harmonic Sliver you need to hold back the card until a Plague hit's play.

I know it's the same with Grip, but when a Plague get's rid of your mana elves, I'd rather spend 2 turns with Pridemage then waiting until my 3th landdrop makes playing Sliver possible.

It still need some testing, but at the moment I'm feeling Pridemage is better than both Zealot and Sliver.

EDIT: Wow, this thing also has exalted? I didn't notice that :) Now I definatly want to play Pridemage. Winning you Goyf-wars and stuff is a very good thing. Granted, in a deck like elves you won't use Exalted a lot, but it's nice to have it available for you when you need it.

[evilfred]

Pounds for Pounds I think Qasali Pridemage is better. A 2/2 body that cost GW instead of a 1/1 for 1GW.

Plus it got Exalted. I'm not sure when we are going to need this (Tarmo war) but it's good to know it's there. The fact that you can wait to use his ability is a plus I think. Holding Mishra's Factory at bay is useful sometime! That's why I liked the Wickerbough Elder.


*EDIT*
One flaw I just noticed, Chalice @ 2 hurt the deck badly and we usually use the Harmonic Sliver against that since it got a converted mana cost of 3. No Dragon Stompy player (unless he's in deep shit) is gonna cast a chalice @ 3. There's Counterbalance, Spell Snare (He's played more and more those days) and Stiffle to name a few card that can easily deal with the Qasali Pridemage.

*EDIT 2*
I updated my list in my previous post.

[Di]

Qasali Pridemage is amazing and probably the best utility creature of that type. However, I see Counterbalance as a bigger problem than Engineered Plague. Plague can be countered by 8 lords so it isn't as huge of a problem, but Counterbalance can hit everything. At 2cc, Pridemage doesn't handle that or Chalice at 2 while well as Harmonic Sliver does, so I can't really justify running it.

[Esper3k]

I agree with the assessment that at least for Legacy, Pridemage isn't as good as Harmonic Sliver (although he's far far superior to Viridian Zealot).

The Harmonic's 3 CC actually is a benefit, making it considerably better at getting through CB than the 2CC of Zealot/Pridemage.

[Atwa]

For some reason counterbalance never seemed that scary. We already play numerous 1 cc creatures which we can easily grow to scary proportions with 8 Lords and a Packmaster, backed up with Order. Not to rule out the Forestwalk Champion grants us against almost every deck playing Counterbalance.

I do however see your point.

I'm going to test it at least and we'll see what happens then.

[Di]

For some reason counterbalance never seemed that scary. We already play numerous 1 cc creatures which we can easily grow to scary proportions with 8 Lords and a Packmaster, backed up with Order. Not to rule out the Forestwalk Champion grants us against almost every deck playing Counterbalance.

I do however see your point.

I'm going to test it at least and we'll see what happens then.

The issue isn't the fact that we have plenty of lords, Natural Order, and Packmaster to get around Counterbalance; that's true, and very good against it. However, the issue is actually what you mention as an alleged benefit: numerous 1cc creatures. In order to cast all those aforementioned bombs, you need a lot of mana on the table, which comes from those 1-2cc mana guys. If you don't stick a few of them before Counterbalance comes down it is incredibly hard to win through it, as lords have trouble racing Goyfs, and drawing mana guys after CB/top is in play can almost be dead draws given they won't resolve.

Given our curve is rounded gives us game against it, but it's still a huge problem.

[beastman]

I love this deck so damn much. Now that thats out of the way, I have to bring up some concerns I have noticed lately. The most prominent concern is the severe lack of removal. I'm not sure what there is to do about this, but I wanted to know if anyone had any ideas.
The second concern is combo. I am currently splashing a bit of white for gaddock teeg, and he is really not thrilling me.
what else is there, and what are you guys doing about these problems?

[troopatroop]

I love this deck so damn much. Now that thats out of the way, I have to bring up some concerns I have noticed lately. The most prominent concern is the severe lack of removal. I'm not sure what there is to do about this, but I wanted to know if anyone had any ideas.
The second concern is combo. I am currently splashing a bit of white for gaddock teeg, and he is really not thrilling me.
what else is there, and what are you guys doing about these problems?

I've been playing Flametongue Kavu at 3x for removal. Wren's Run Vanquisher helps, but not against things that aren't attacking. It's been nice to be able to Survival for removal, but this basically means we can't play Messenger.

[beastman]

I completely forgot about vanquisher! That guy is amazing. He's like opening a can of goyf-b-gone!

[Elf_Ascetic]

Why would you want removal? I can't think of a creatures that could be standing in the way between your little green men and your opponent.

I tackled combo with Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist on the sideboard, ain't that great but better then nothing.

*EDIT: Who, you guys are fast. I see Goyf is being seen as a probleem. I fail to see why: You have Elvish Champion, and Progenitus that just waves to goyf and hits your opponent in the face. If you're afraid to attack without Forestwalk, I suggest you try Symbiote some more. Just bounce the blocked Elf, untap a creature, play elf, and you're ready to go.. An attacking goyf is with 4 Perfects and some Symbiotes also no problem. Plus 3 Goyfs of your own, of course.

*EDIT #2: Ok, You maybe want to remove Goblin Sharpshooter, SGC or Lackey. You can opt for a single removalcard in your survivaltoolbox (Kavu was named, I think Fire Imp can be taken too), or you can run 3-4 StP.

[evilfred]

I completely forgot about vanquisher! That guy is amazing. He's like opening a can of goyf-b-gone!

I rather play Wren's Run Packmaster for his ability to pump out Deathtouch creature at will. It's just as easy as to get a Vanquisher with survival and he leave you with open slots in the deck, plus he's a 5/5 for 4 mana.

I also put Masticore in the sideboard for spot removal. She's doing a great job!

[Di]

Why would you want removal? I can't think of a creatures that could be standing in the way between your little green men and your opponent.

Because other aggro decks still have the ability to race you and potentially out-man you, or often times it isn't in your benefit to play hyper-aggressive because they can hold their own and you need to wait, giving them even more time to find answers. For instance in Chicago I lost to Affinity, a good matchup, because he was able to race me. Granted he had the absolute godhand in game 1 and 3, but I had a very good hand each game and he was still able to kill me. Had I had access to more creature removal, I would've been fine. Goblins can also occasionally be a problem if they're able to have a turn 1 Lackey on the play and be able to Wierding/Fanatic your first creature.

My own removal suite just has Masticore and Wren's Run Vanquisher in the maindeck (and I guess Packmaster applies as well). Masticore is the best card we have because it's capable of killing anything, including a Dreadnought, in this deck. It also completely wipes out other aggro hordes in 1-2 turns. FTK is also a fine choice but I dislike not being able to kill Goyfs and Tombstalkers. Otherwise, the only other options we really are limited to Duplicant, Triskelion, Fire Imp, Goblin Sharpshooter, etc. If it's that big of an issue then you can still add a Bayou and run a Shriekmaw, but I'm wary to add another color into the deck.