Do we have to run Bob? I'm thinking the list could take out the Bob's and play back to basics? Something like...
4x Glimpse the unthinkable
2x Twin cast
3x Back to Basics
3x Mind's Funeral
2x Traumatize
2x Jace Berelen
4x Force of Will
2x Damnation
4x Shriekmaw
4x Brainstorm
4x Broken Ambitions
2x Propoganda
4x Spell Snare
Lot's of control not perfect still rough but I think a better idea of what we are hoping for. If we take out the Bob's we have more room for control less damage we take from him as well. I think tombstalker should be in here somewhere also thoughtseize... still trying to find the room.
Originally Posted by thefringthing
Back to Basics belongs in sideboard. There's no reason to slow your momentum with it. Even as a sideboard, not to sound like a hater but its sorta slow in this deck compared to decks like Faerie.. and vial decks have a way of playing around it.
I agree about getting rid of Bob. The deck's thin enough on creatures/removal as is, last thing you need is a fragile creature you're not gonna block with. This deck needs something like wall of blossoms, osmething that comes in with an instant affect AND can be used as a blocker... hmm, maybe a good 2-3 shadowmage infiltrator would be a better idea than Bob 'cause not only is he pitchable to Force of will, but he's better suited as a blocker when he comes into play and doesn't drain your life away.
I'm not really sure about Jace either... its like, either you draw a card and he most likely gets killed, or you both draw a card and you help your opponent as much as yourself.. I dunno.
Still though, there's not board control like Damnation.
Get Traumatize outta there though Lol. What'r you gonna play that, turn 8? By then they should either be dead or have like less than 20 cards.
I would say -2 tramautize +2 Reanimate (I didn't realize it costs that much lol)
Why would you Traumatize when you could Haunting Echoes? You also want 4 Mind Funeral, it's 1000 times better than Glimpse. When I was fooling around with the deck, I found that I wanted Damnation and Ensnaring Bridge a lot.
I haven't play tested this deck yet. I had something similar a while ago... maybe 6 months or more. If you know of what you speak then it probably is a good idea. I'm just trying to help.
Okay, this deck is an absolute pile. That said, here's what I've been playing with:
4 Delta
2 Strand
4 Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jace Beleren
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 SDT
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mind's Funeral (usually 10+)
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
1 Twincast
3 Ensnaring Bridge
Ensnaring Bridge seems kinda poor here, because we're filling up our hands a lot with Jace and Bob, so something else might be good. Maybe more creatures? Tombstalker might fit the bill, or some removal. I've been trying this sideboard:
4 Relic
4 Plague
4 Back to Basics (kinda ballsy, the manabase might need some adjustment for it to work)
3 Echoing Truth/Wipe Away/some removal
If this was me... I'd try something like this to test out:
Lands (20) *yeah, I think any less is not enough. just my opinion tho
8 Fetch
2 Urborg
4 Wasteland
4 dual Lands
1 Swamp
1 Island
Mill (8)
4 Mind's Funeral
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
Creatures (7)
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator
3 Nihilith
2 Trinket Mage
Control (18)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Sinkhole
4 Extirpate
2 Damnation
1 Pithing Needle
1 sensei's divining top
Utility (6)
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
==================
Shadowmage can be a blocker, gives card advantage without expense of life, and can be pitched to force of will. Throwing in some trinkets adds a little versatility being able to fetch for needle in situations, engineered explosives can be sideboarded as well. I like the idea using sinkhole more than thoughtseize/duress because... well, it's better synergy: land destruction + extirpate + Mind's funeral. I also like the idea of Nihilith as a beater, you can suspend him turn 2, then brainstorm/play Glimpse the following turn now you got a 4/4 Fatty in play on turn 3I also think damnation is an important addition, sinkhole and counterspelling will only slow their progress but eventually you'll have goblins, kird apes, drakes, etc coming at you soon enough, and its just too good not to have :)
If I may, it seems to me the strength of this type of deck (er, if it has one) is that it attacks something few decks have invested defenses in - the library.
And as someone mentioned - unless they have a really good board position, Glimpse or Mind Funeral plus Haunting Echoes is a pretty solid win - particularly if it's followed up by a second Glimpse or Mind Funeral.
What about a control-ish build, trying to keep the other guy from doing much? [Glimpse / Funeral] + Haunting Echos don't have to be back-to-back to be pretty solid. Combine them with some protection or (my casual favorite) Boseiju to make sure they resolve, or even some U/B Stax-like build using sorceries for the win?
One problem being, of course, how damn useful a graveyard tends to be in the meantime, before it's removed. Maybe Yixid Jailer in the side to keep ourselves from giving certain archetypes more resources?
I dunno. I'd really like to see milling become viable, but the problem is, up until a mill deck wins, it's really only enabling about a dozen other playable cards ('Goyf, Mongoose, Cabal Therapy / Flashback, Dread Return, Bridge from Beyond, Academy Ruins, Volrath's Stronghold). Trying to have a plan to deal with everything the deck accidentally turns on while setting up to win might be... ...tricky.
What about Guiltfeeder as a finisher? Seems solid, especially with all the milling. It has fear, and you only need to hit once.
For some reason, I think Chains of Mephistopheles could work in a deck like this.
Bridge from below*
Yea I hear ya man. But remember, maindecking extirpate with split second you can remove those same threats, and they aren't able to respond while its on the stack. You can always sideboard Leyline too, if you see it working against you, ya know
But like, if you checked out the decklist I made you have Daze & FoW early to at least disrupt them to buy you a turn against those early threats you mentioned; sinkhole could work the same, set them a turn back. It'll just disrupt them long enough to buy some time, but I even mentioned mixing in cards like Nihilith + Mill, you can unsuspend a 4/4 beater on turn 3 ontop of milling them 10-20 cards :) That's good synergy. Damnation's gotta have a place too, you can mill them down to 5 cards but if they kill you the next turn 'cause you lossed control of the board you get no kudos points for coming close lol
He'd be pretty gnarly, I love him in EDH in multiplayer games and all. But the mana cost is pretty much only prob. converted mana cost 5, keep in mind your mana base is at best 30%, so you're looking on average like turn 7-10 by the time he can actually attack. There's not enough disruption/support to pull that off, which is why I didn't even include Patriarch's bidding 'cause I think it's just too slow without some form of excel like mox's/ritual/bloom/etc.What about Guiltfeeder as a finisher? Seems solid, especially with all the milling. It has fear, and you only need to hit once.
He's also succeptible to removal the 2 turns before he can swing, whereas you play something like Glimpse you're guaranteed it'll have an immediate effect.
A resolved Haunting Echoes with 10-12+ random cards in the 'yard is game right there. Plus, Guiltfeeder + Haunting Echoes are at cross purposes.
So the question then is, which is deadlier, a Sorcery that says, "If you have the better board position, you win the game", or a creature that says, "Attack once (and don't get blocked or removed or stuff like that), and you win the game"?
...seriously, I dunno the answer there. I'm *guessing* Haunting Echoes, because I think there's *probably* less to do about it once it resolves. But damned if I know. But whichever answer the deck chooses, the other one belongs in the sideboard, probably, because they both take (for the most part) very different answers (er, counterspells excepted).
Hello,
i like this idea a lot. Using glimpse, mind funeral and extirpate is something i would really like to try.
Have you considered playing standstill and stuff like propaganda to stall the opponent? And adding the painter/stone combo? If you would like more milling you can add memory sluice too...
Regards
I think the only answer is a U/B/? control deck, almost Stax / Landstill, that freezes down the 'board, then uses Mind Funeral / Haunting Echoes as the finisher.
I'll note that this has the advantage of never needing to actually get an attacker through, so playing mass-removal (Deed, Damnation, Mutilate... ...er, whatever else...?) isn't that bad.
Probably use The Abyss (since you don't want / have creatures anyway) to replace Landstill's Moats. And, uh... ...other... ...stuff?
...Jeez, I dunno. Seems like a lot of work, and there's still no good answer to "why?". It won't be faster that Landstill, I wouldn't think, or particularly "better" at it than Landstill. So, why bother?
...hmmmm...
*goes to read the Landstill thread again*
Why not run the best black creature of the format, aka tombstalker? I'm testing a list like this: needs refinement:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [A] Underground Sea
1 [ON] Island (2)
1 [MM] Swamp (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Creatures
1 [ARB] Nemesis of Reason
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
// Spells
3 [ARB] Mind Funeral
3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [BD] Dark Ritual
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [OD] Haunting Echoes
3 [SC] Stifle
2 [RAV] Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 [TE] Propaganda
3 [LRW] Ponder
2 [PLC] Extirpate
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
It resembles a Team America with the insertion of some stuff like mind funeral and glimpse. waste and stifle helps to screw opponent (and feed the grave for pate-echoes), propaganda/snuff out keeps us safe against fast aggro, and stalker...well...it's a wincon, what else? Also, seize+tourach are prettu good engines for the deck. I really miss sinkhole, I'm sure it fits in the deck. Reasons why I don't play 4 funeral 4 glimpses: well, simply milling and milling the our opponent's deck is (pardon me), stupid. I played a similar deck (without MF), with traumatize echoes and so on since glimpse was printed, so I know the frustrarion of being beaten by every fast aggro and every combo and every deck that could apply some pressure on t2-3 (turn by which we've mayebe cast a glimpse or two). Milling is a good strategy but it can't be the focusing part of the plan. It has been said that mind funeral attacks a part of the game in which player normally do not pay attention (the number of the cards, but as a landstill player, I do care much), and that's true. But focusin exclusively on that plan will leave us uncovered against alla the threats that come from the field, that's where legacy battles are fought. So if the milling is a good strategy, I prefer an approach more concerned about obtaining first hand, then board control; then we are free to begin milling our opponent's resources, while he spends his last trying to remove the huge flying black clock form the board. One of black-based worst defects is that at some point they finish their resources and go in topdeck mode. This does not happen when the opponent finds a good portion of his deck into his grave (and it is not ichorid! ^^). Waste lock prevents loam shenanigans too, or at least stops them till echoes. Ritual provides the acceleration needed (19 lands + ritual). Despite the high number of cantrips, sometimes we go to topdeck mode too, though.
Um, because he does nothing to the opponent's library? ...or graveyard?
Combining creature-attacks on the lifetotal with sorcery-attacks on the library is going to lead to a confused pile that isn't sure how it's supposed to win.
...that said, that'd make a neat sideboard option.
I'm toying with this, so far only in my head - with thanks to the Landstill crowd -
Manabase - 23
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Academy Ruins
7 Island
2 Swamp
Removal - 10
3 Engineered Explosives
3 The Abyss
3 Damnation
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Permission - 10
4 Force
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
Draw - 10
4 brainstorm
4 top
1 jace
1 fact or fiction
Tutor - 2
2 Mystical Tutor
Win - 5
3 Mind Funeral
2 Haunting Echoes
Damnation instead of Wrath, Abyss instead of Moat, and Mind Funeral / Haunting Echoes instead of Mishra's / Decree.
...
Man, even saying that makes it make less sense. ...why the hell are we doing this, again?
Oh yeah. Fun.
Say gg to mishra. You'd want to play it yourself.
I try it myself:
Manabase - 23
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Academy Ruins
4 Island
1 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Wasteland
Removal - 10
1 Engineered Explosives
4 The Abyss
4 Damnation
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Maze of Ith
Permission - 10
4 Force
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
Draw - 7
4 brainstorm
3 jace
Tutor - 3
3 Intuition
Win - 6
3 Mind Funeral
2 Haunting Echoes
1 Crucible of Worlds
...
Say, there's an idea. Duh. Thanks.
it just seems to me you feel the same urgence to take a huge board advantage, making the deck a confusing pile of mass removal and some mind funeral, with some landstill base. Tombstalker applies a rediculous pressure on the board, while we keep it clear with removal/propaganda, and we take hand control with our discards (you don't have any hand control factor, that's a pity since black offers the best options about that!). one of the best intuition of Team america is that it pairs hand control with board control, mana denial and permission altogether, and I won't call that just a pile of cards...we can just throw away green and go with milling instead of beating. Your deck has nothing to do but wait and wait and wait and remove (sorcery speed...) and then mill some cards. a pair of duress and your deck's gone...Um, because he does nothing to the opponent's library? ...or graveyard?
Combining creature-attacks on the lifetotal with sorcery-attacks on the library is going to lead to a confused pile that isn't sure how it's supposed to win.
...that said, that'd make a neat sideboard option.
I'm toying with this, so far only in my head - with thanks to the Landstill crowd -
Manabase - 23
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Academy Ruins
7 Island
2 Swamp
Removal - 10
3 Engineered Explosives
3 The Abyss
3 Damnation
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Permission - 10
4 Force
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
Draw - 10
4 brainstorm
4 top
1 jace
1 fact or fiction
Tutor - 2
2 Mystical Tutor
Win - 5
3 Mind Funeral
2 Haunting Echoes
Damnation instead of Wrath, Abyss instead of Moat, and Mind Funeral / Haunting Echoes instead of Mishra's / Decree.
...
Man, even saying that makes it make less sense. ...why the hell are we doing this, again?
Oh yeah. Fun.
The trouble is you need the list to do something that landstill and other related "control shells" don't. After you've locked down, how is it better to win with 12 cards dedicated maindeck to mill than it is to just win with 1 decree of justice or 1 isochron scepter?
You need to bring something to the table that isn't already there, otherwise the deck is just a cute trick.
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