Hello ! This is the list I ran tonight
// Lands (14)
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
// Creatures
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
// Spells
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
// Sideboard
3 Wishpmare
4 Pithing Needle
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Ichorid
3 Firestorm
I top'd 8 in a 28 men tournament. But it didn't went that well
First matchup: Goblins
2-0
The goblin deck was kind of "random" (running lightning bolt, fireblast, no Port, no wastedland and I think he had no piledriver)
First game; stalled the early game with my Tireless Tribe when he had lackey. He attacked me and I killed his lackey. I dredge'd like pure shit, and I kept a 6 cards hand but I had no draw outlet. (big mistakes, but I did a lot of mulligans in the tournament. I had like a hand with 6 lands, and after a hand with 0 land...) But I finally dredged into some good things and proceeded to kill him.
game 2, he had vial, but I dredge into some Narco and therapy and he only had high costed goblins, I therapy'd them later on because I dredge into therapy. And after some times I finally dredge into brige and killed him. (for the game 2, I sided in 4 needle)
Match up 2 : Merfolk
0-2
I lost big time to this list, I've found merfolk to be my worst match up and I might need some help on what to change in my list in a meta with lot of merfolk. They have Cursecatcher, daze, Fow, Wastedland, Jitte and Waketrasher that can piss us off a lot
First game : mulled to 5. Got my study FOW. Then he put his vial and jitte. I got slowed down a lot, had some good dredge. He had 2 mutavaults and he killed his own mutavault to break my bridge... I kill his second mutavault with a zombie that I've made earlier. Then I had some recuring ichorid that got him down to about ~14... but he drew a merfolk and he was killing my 2 ichorids and I lost
Game 2 : I sided in 4 Needle... Mull'd to 5. He got in the game 3 wasted land, a daze, 2 Relic, a cursecatcher, a waketrasher...
Match up 3 : Agaisnt a random white deck.
Game 1 : killed him turn 4
Game 2 : killed him turn 3
The problems that I've found with my list is that the deck is sometimes REALLY SLOW. versus deck and playtesting 4-5 games before tournament, I had like turn 10 kills.... ALso, I've had LOTS of crappy hand, like 0 land, 75% lands hand... No draw outlet hands or no discard outlet. In past tournament I've found some problems such as not winning the game 1.
I've had some problems with FOW slowing me down way too much.
By the way, I got some nice hands versus random deck and awful ones vs good decks XD
The problem of this tournament is that I didn't really play agaisnt competitive deck (except merfolk) and I lost to the only non-conpetitive deck that I've faced.
But when this deck had a decent hand, it works like a wonder.
I might try LED version next week and see how it works because my friend can lend me 4 LED
What I would do:Originally Posted by Joe_C
hand 1) Turn 1: Play mine, cast careful study{hoping to draw a breakthrough}, discard troll and something else(thug, if I didnt draw a stinkweed or something) pass turn. Turn 2: Is dependant on what I drew off of study and what my opponent did turn 1. Against blue if I drew breakthrough- draw for turn, play city, play putrid imp(will most likey draw a counter out), then I will sit there and sweat my opponent for information by looking through my hand and glancing back at them to try to determine if they are holding another counter. If I think I can resolve breakthrough, go for it and play it.- against blue if I didnt draw breakthrough- Dredge for the draw step, play city, play therapy naming FOW, if I can cast imp afterwards, play it(now i am in good shape for the next few turns). Against anything not blue- turn 2 I dredge for draw, make a good guess at what they are playing and blind therapy a strong card choice, then land putrid imp.
hand 2) Ive kept hands like this since you can breakthrough for x=1 on turn 2 and you have a study to help dig on turn 1. After knowing what my opponent is playing, this gets riskier, but it has potential and I am percentage wise most likely to get a dredger than going to 6 cards.
hand 3) keep and therapy myself naming troll. hope I can go ape shit next turn with a breakthrough. if not I still have 2 trolls in the grave to get the ichorid beats going
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
For that first hand, if you think you're playing against blue, it might be best to lead with turn 1 Therapy on Force, then go nuts on turn 2 with Imp (pitch GGT and Thug) then Careful Study. Otherwise, I would lead with Imp and start dredging a lot on turn 2 (draw step and Careful Study).
I would keep the second hand. It's more important to open a hand with lands and discard outlets than a hand with dredgers. I'd play the Tribe turn 1. My turn 2 play would depend on what my opponent did and what I drew for the turn.
I don't think I'd keep that third hand unless I knew for sure what I was playing against (i.e. no Wastelands, no Dazes). And even then, I'd probably toss it back.
@Guitar: This afternoon i played in a tournament with merfolk as one of my match-ups. I agree that this match-up is very problematic. I lost 0-2. I mulliganed both games to 5. In both games i just wasn't able to get the dredge game going. my outlets got countered in both games, i just wasn't able to dredge out my library to get the ichorids online. The game was a real beating. The key to this match-up was getting the ichorid beats going as soon as turn 2-3, this just didn't happen.
In two tournaments, I played a 2/2 thug and darkblast split and it seems terrible. I wasn't able to fully utilize both at times. Im going back to my old list that is exactly the same as what Pulp_Fiction is running. I'll just keep my 3 thugs in check against tournaments that doesn't have alot of blue and my 4th breakthrough for the 4th therapy against tournaments that doesn't have a lot of blue. ^^
@Joe_C:
hand 1: Isn't better to therapy for FOW turn 1 and play city and Imp for turn 2 just in case an opponent has daze or sumthing? from my experience the study will more or less get countered. I played a hand like this earlier against merfolk, i was able to resolve the imp and was able to dredge but without the draw spell (got countered turn 1) i wasn't able to dredge fast enough, he was able to bring out a wake thrasher via vial, 2 mutavaults and a standstill. @_@
I prefer to cast study since we do not know what we are playing against. if they counter the study, our turn 2 still has a "daze free" imp or you can therapy then play imp. Losing the chance at drawing into turn 2 breakthrough wants me not want to blind therapy turn 1. There may be situations where you get shafted by playing this way, but they need 2x counter withing their top 8-10 cards(assuming they can brainstorm etc...) to be able to put a halt to your plans, you cant play this deck too scared or you will miss opportunities to get explosive starts
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
1. Play City and cast PImp. Upkeep give him flying and dredge then discard GGT again and cast Study and keep going. I may Therapy before casting Study, depending on whether or not they played an island.
2. I will always mull this hand, I never keep a hand without a dredger, to many times I have done that and it just fails; unless you mull down to 5 cards and the hand is something like land, Tribe/PImp, Study, Therapy, land but I would never keep a 7 card hand like that.
3. I would mull this also, its garbage and totally reliant on the top 12 cards of your library. At best you have a turn 3-4 win and that is being generous and getting very lucky with dredges.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
I'll be playing in a fairly small field in a couple of weeks, probably 12 people, but theres a chance of another Dredge deck, plenty of CounterTop, couple of Stax decks, Burn, Threshold & Goblins.
I just wanted to ask about the Mirror match, since it hasn't been discussed much.
What do you side in and what are the key plays?
On another note, I think I am being a little greedy in my sideboard with multiple 'ooh this would be cool to reanimate' cards. Theres only so much room, so which are the optimal ones to keep?
Empirical Archangel
Woodfall Primus
Inkwell Leviathan
Sundering Titan
Ancestors Chosen
Archangel/Ancestors Chosen are for Burn/Goblins, altho Chosen could potentially help against ANT as well. Inkwell Leviathan is possibly overkill, but with so much CounterTop around, if my Bridges were removed I wanted a surprise way to smash face. Sundering Titan can just punish all those dual lands, however maybe win-more.
I wanted one maindeck (1 Sage, 2 Ichorid, 1 Reanimate Target, 3 DR) for a surprise/fun factor, and can probably only fit two in the board. Which means two have to go.. instinct tells me Archangel and Sundering Titan.
Edit: for reference, my board is now:
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chain of Vapor
4 x Chalice of the Void
1x Ancestor's Chosen
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Wispmare
Ok, Ive decided that I want more dredgers in this deck... Here is what I am playing at the moment:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
2 Cephalid Sage
4 Breakthrough
2 Tireless Tribe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Darkblast
SB:
4 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
3 Firestorm
3 Wispmare
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Tarnished Citadel
From my previous builds, this is -1 careful study, -1 ichorid, +2 darkblast. At 14 dredgers now and it feels pretty comfortable. Darkblast adds a turn 1 answer for goblins, jailer, and plenty of other x/1, x/2 creatures. Thoughts?
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
Why Null Rod on the sideboard, Joe?
because in 1 card it shuts off relic and tormods crypt. Playing needle on 1 or the other just to have them drop the one you didnt name really sucks. also its good against combo! all their moxes and LED's do nothing. For the 2cc its worth running
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
How ridiculous is Null Rod? Let me count the ways:
1. Relic of Progenitus
2. Tormod's Crypt
3. Sensei's Divining Top
4. Engineered Explosives, Powder Keg
5. Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Lion's Eye Diamond
It's pretty much 2 Pithing Needles rolled into one. While the primary function is to shut off BOTH Relic and Crypt with one card, it has incredible splash damage across the format.
Nice list Joe, the deck looks really fast and explosive in the first few turns and solid in the mid to late game.
Don't you find hands that have been better had a thug been a draw spell? How was your post-board testing? Aren't you having problems looking for answers or additional lands post-board without the draw power of the two other studies? Apart from mulling to answers drawing into them through studies are one of the decks strongest plays imo.
Oh and another thing, how was your blast and thug split? I used to run a 2/2 split on thugs and blasts, one seem to weaken the other because of the split, I just ended dropping the split. I felt that thug wasn't optimal in the slots that it took up i ended up going back to the 4th breakthrough and 3rd blast. Maybe you're able to utilize thugs better since you play more dredgers than the usual.
Apart from those inquiries, the list looks great, especially the inclusion of null rod, i may find myself looking for a playset of these. I'd be testing your list and ill see how it plays, it looks like it can really kick ass.
Interesting take. I would really be scared of playing less than 14 lands. How has 13 worked for you? Do you find that you mulligan more? Only thing I would think would make the deck better is -2 Thug, +1 Darkblast, +1 Careful Study. I would not suggest 4x Breakthrough but your list seems more geared towards speed so 4x is probably the right number.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
The 13 land manabase has been good to me so far. If I get into matches that run wasteland, I can always bring in the 14th land from the board. I cant say that running 13 lands makes me mull any more than usual. I try to aim for explosive starts or ones that at least get me an imp or tribe out on turn 1. I may consider dropping ichorids down to 2x so I can run the 3rd careful study, I may also drop 1 breakthrough for the 3rd tribe. There are really a ton of possibilities with this deck and the card quantities, they all work at some point in time or another. Im trying to get really consistent turn 2-4 wins, bumping up my dredge count and focusing more on the combo instead of ichorid recursion is my best way to do so in my opinion.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
As posted above, can anyone share their experiences/thoughts on the Mirror?
Are you talking about the exact mirror? or facing lists that run LED? If you fear them running Leyline, bring in your chain of vapors and your wispmare. The mirror is pretty much about controlling the ground game... Whoever gets ahead in the creature race will pretty much win. Running darkblast is good in this matchup, also Firestorm would be beneficial...
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
The mirror is basically just a race and a battle of dorks. I personally have never lost the mirror, I usually name Breakthrough with Therapy and mull into hands that have Imp/Tribe and dredger. And Darkblast is usually very good in the mirror, just place other Narcomoeba trigger in the stack and kill theirs or kill your creatures to remove their Bridges. But usually the games are decided by beatdown with threshed Imps and shit.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Hey guys,
I've already consulted several of you about this deck. I used to play LED dredge, and while I recognize the power of that variant, games 2 and 3 are always awkward beyond words. It always comes down to your opponent keeping a really bad hand full of hate and you sitting their twiddling your thumbs while you wait for more mana so you can go the man plan or cast your anti-hate cards. By adding lands, I can already tell that the deck is making a successful step towards resilience and consistency over breakneck speed that isn't necessarily needed.
A few things I'd like to note, transitioning from Parcher's build to this one:
-I really like Unmask. I know a lot of people haven't had the most success with it, but I honestly feel like it's one of the deck's best tools. Ripping threats, counters, and hate straight out of your opponent's hand is a godsend. Even if it does slow you down, it slows your opponent down just as much if not more. Coupled with Cabal Therapy, you're setting up your deck to do some very mean things.
- Firestorm has been amazing in testing. A board wipe followed by nasty dredges the following turn can really turn some matchups upside down easier than ever before(note Goblins). I'm really interested to see what results Guitar's variant using Firestorms over Tireless Tribes put up, because I really want to try it myself.
- I am in love with Eternal Witness in this deck, with or without LED. I understand that she's isn't as ridiculous in this deck solely because LED isn't in it, but I've been in countless situations where she performed just as well, if not better than Cephalid Sage. Her versatility is unparalleled, and even when you're comboing off, you can fetch for a Breakthrough or a Cephalid Coliseum. Since the deck takes a slower pace, the chances of you having enough mana to play either of those is very high. She also helps tremendously in games 2 and 3.
- I know Parcher doesn't run fatties, but I've always been a fan of running an extra utility creature MB. I play in a metagame with a lot of random decks, so I never know what I'll run into game 1 that would need my immediate attention. Hence, Angel of Despair. Totally preference call, but I don't think it's so bad since she can be Ichorid food.
Here's the decklist (that I've yet to test):
// Lands
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
2 [OD] Tireless Tribe
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [GP] Angel of Despair
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [TO] Breakthrough
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 4 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 3 [MM] Unmask
More notes:
-No room for Unmask MB unless I wanted to cut Careful Study. Since the deck doesn't have broke-ass turns that can win off LED and DA alone, Careful Study might be a better pick.
-I want to try Firestorm over Tireless Tribe MD.
-The board is still iffy for me. I kinda want to have Wispermare or Ray of Revelation in there, so I think I might cut down on Chain of Vapors. I also really want to have 4 Unmasks. I'm in a dilemma.
-This is for a metagame full of aggro, aggro-control, and random (of course still a handful of control and combo, but primarily the former 3).
-Would you follow the same SB strategies as posted on the first page if you were to run this variant?
Any help is appreciated !
Yesmilord: I think you want more than just 4 answers to leyline if it hits. Wispmare and chain of vapor have been great working together for me.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
Yea I was thinking about adding more enchantment hate, but I really don't think I will see Leyline. If anything, I might run into the guy that runs White Stax every time, and that'll be the real problem :/
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote