[OLD] UGw Threshold

[gustha]

Hi everyone!
I put up a list in a hurry for a tournament sunday (there's all from gobbo merfolk zoo to landstill aggro loam dredge threshold ant belcher etc., I hope at least 40-45 people). I recently had a look at DIF's NQB/w and was thinking to a similar list. Since I usually play landstill I'd really appreciate suggestions ^^

Lands: 18 (maybe 17 is better?)

2 forest
2 island
1 plains
3 tropical
2 tundra
4 flooded
4 windswept

Creatures: 15

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Jenara, Asura of War/Mystic Enforcer/RWM#3 (still undecided)

Draw Engine: 8

4 Brainstom
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Enlightened Tutor

Tutor Toolbox: 4

1 Oring
1 Jitte
1 EE
1 Dueling Grounds (good against all aggro preboard, 
good vs icho preboard, awesome with the exalted mechanic)

Permission: 15

4 Fow
3 Daze
3 spell snare
4 counterbalance

Walkers: 1

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant (late game card, good vs contro, 
rhinos on steroids, shynergistic with exalted mechanic; occasionally, cc4 for cb)

The side is still to build, here I hope suggestions will rain! ^^ Anyway, some considerations:
3x Gaddock Teeg -> autoinclude
0/1 jitte
0/2 path to exile
0/1 elspeth
0/1 EE
1/2 relic
0/1 RWM
0/2 ghostly prison
0/1 b2b
0/3 needle

Thanx in advance

CB curve: (preside)
cc1: 15
cc2: 15
cc3: 5/6
cc4: 1/2
cc5: 4

[Aleksandr]

Hi everyone!
I put up a list in a hurry for a tournament sunday..

No Ponder?

[gustha]

I have to sac elspeth and some hierarchs to make room for it... or I maybe cut daze, I'm not really fond of it...

[memnarch]

why you gotta post your deck all weird maaaan. 18 lands is great! with more ponder.

Dueling Grounds is actulay an interesting idea. I have found Jenara to be a house. along with trygon over Pridemage because of balance and Krosan Grip even MD isnt a bad idea. All and all though it looks good. interesting ideas. Also you realize its 61 cards?

[gustha]

I counted 60, but they are 61. Anyway, I could drop the 4 hierarch's to make room for 3 ponder, without touching the balance curve. I'm not sure if it's a wise thing to pull out the mana acceleration, and daze still sucks without that...I really wish mroe suggestions on this point to solve this doubt.
@dueling grounds: I started with 2 jitte MD, but a 1/1 split b/w jitte/dueling grounds I think it's better, since one keeps quiet small swarming aggros, the other completely stops them (our blockers being usuall bigger than their attackers), gets not killed by other's jitte, does not go under spell snare, and plus it's fantastic with the exalted mechanic so that with RWM we can take advantage even in respect of aggros with bigger creatures (stalker, terravore, crusher, etc.). This at least in theory ^^ And it's fairly good if paired with the constant flow of blockers provided by elspeth, and that's why I inserted a mono jenara (still I have not tested with jenara in, so I can say nothing, maybe enforcer still suits better).

[sauce]

why play dueling grounds?
i would almost always rather run propaganda, the only thing i can see it being better against marginally is elves, but elves run viridian zealot/shaman so it won't last anyway.

the props for propaganda is that its blue and can be pitched to fow (obv) and also is less color intensive.

i would play -1 jenara -1 trygon +2 vendilion clique in those 2 slots since you got 3 pridemages main.

nice list otherwise.

[Aleksandr]

why play dueling grounds?
i would almost always rather run propaganda, the only thing i can see it being better against marginally is elves, but elves run viridian zealot/shaman so it won't last anyway.

the props for propaganda is that its blue and can be pitched to fow (obv) and also is less color intensive.

i would play -1 jenara -1 trygon +2 vendilion clique in those 2 slots since you got 3 pridemages main.

nice list otherwise.

Contrary to Dueling Grounds, under Propaganda your creatures still cannot attack into horde of Goblins.
Otoh: both of them suck same..

[memnarch]

Contrary to Dueling Grounds, under Propaganda your creatures still cannot attack into horde of Goblins.
Otoh: both of them suck same..

Not really propaganda works wonders against all kinda decks out of my side. It would be engineered plague if I had black. But it works great against ichord and aggro swarm type of decks. Its one of the best SB cards.

[Aleksandr]

Not really propaganda works wonders against all kinda decks out of my side. It would be engineered plague if I had black. But it works great against ichord and aggro swarm type of decks. Its one of the best SB cards.

Against Ichorid maybe, because they cannot win under it (well... except for Akroma), but Goblins will not only chump your champion all day long, but they can also gang-kill him and eventually win on SGC/Sharpshooter/Krosan Grip. Also paying four to attack with Warbeef+Piledriver makes a 5lf swing per turn (unless you leave Goyf at home, but in such a case they have all the time to find their Grip), not to mention Vial->SGC, sac tokens to Prospector, sac Matron to Prospector, sac Fanatic to Propector, sac Prospector, tap all mountains to fuel the Ganda, tap: Ringleader, SGC, double Warchief, Driver, Driver, Driver, swing for 41.. all that goblineous lategame nonsense.

They cannot do this with Dueling Grounds out, no matter how many mana they have. Also you are not giving them time, as you can force through their defense, cause they cannot gangblock. They either chump or lose... With proper use of EE, CB, StP and any flier you can race them or devoid them of chumpers.

Dueling Grounds is far better than P., because you can swing into opposing hordes with your Goyf. Under the Propaganda they just gang him with zombies or Matrones+tokens+Fanatics and occasional Moeba/Incinerator/SGC/Sharpshooter to finish him.

Dueling Grounds is a bit better than Propaganda, imho. Yet they still both suck...

[Adan]

Dueling Grounds is a bit better than Propaganda, imho. Yet they still both suck...

Add a Mystic Enforcer and Dueling Grounds becomes like 10 times better.

[Clark Kant]

Silent Arbiter is basically Dueling grounds with a solid blocker attached as you wont always have an untapped goyf to block with.

[gustha]

I was thinking the same, in fact I put enforcer in the slot of jenara. It's problack with exhalted makes him a powerful beater under dueling grounds. And oh yes, while gobbos can chumpblock to death, we also are attacking with, say, RWM, that really makes the difference. And we always have jitte to get rid of our opponent's blockers, and 6 swords postsb and maybe another 2 prison effects. I don't think it sucks so much.

I'd really appreciate the suggestion of vendilion clique. I've been thinking about hierarch/daze/ponder in this deck. As I said, I'm not an expert in the archetype, so correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like, with 18 lands, ponder is "just" a mana fixer: it's just an early seeker of mana paired with bs. Mid-late game it does not give us card quantity but some quality, if we wanted a strong spell to abuse of top we'd used predict, that makes real CA (as a 2 of). Why do we need a cantrip like ponder if hierarch already is the early mana source we want?
Same is true for the hierarch/daze sinergy. It always seemed to me that daze sucked without mana acceleration. So no hierarch = daze sucks. With ponder, that 3 slots has to be revisited? It's a strong feeling. It seems to me, to sum up, that ponder is incompatible with hierarch (which covers better the role of mana acceleration/fixing than ponder); and, moreover, that daze is really good only if paired with hierarch. It's just an impression, or there's some good point to spend on the question? Thanks.

[Enigma]

And we always have jitte to get rid of our opponent's blockers, and 6 swords postsb and maybe another 2 prison effects. I don't think it sucks so much.

I don't see the 4 swords MD... Beside of this, I like the list. But you seriously have to cut 4 things for the swords. the E.T. toolbox? Spell snares? Hierarchs?

P-M

[majikal]

I was thinking the same, in fact I put enforcer in the slot of jenara. It's problack with exhalted makes him a powerful beater under dueling grounds. And oh yes, while gobbos can chumpblock to death, we also are attacking with, say, RWM, that really makes the difference. And we always have jitte to get rid of our opponent's blockers, and 6 swords postsb and maybe another 2 prison effects. I don't think it sucks so much.

I'd really appreciate the suggestion of vendilion clique. I've been thinking about hierarch/daze/ponder in this deck. As I said, I'm not an expert in the archetype, so correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like, with 18 lands, ponder is "just" a mana fixer: it's just an early seeker of mana paired with bs. Mid-late game it does not give us card quantity but some quality, if we wanted a strong spell to abuse of top we'd used predict, that makes real CA (as a 2 of). Why do we need a cantrip like ponder if hierarch already is the early mana source we want?
Same is true for the hierarch/daze sinergy. It always seemed to me that daze sucked without mana acceleration. So no hierarch = daze sucks. With ponder, that 3 slots has to be revisited? It's a strong feeling. It seems to me, to sum up, that ponder is incompatible with hierarch (which covers better the role of mana acceleration/fixing than ponder); and, moreover, that daze is really good only if paired with hierarch. It's just an impression, or there's some good point to spend on the question? Thanks.

Ponder is great because it lets you shuffle your deck. I wouldn't cut it completely for anything.

[Aleksandr]

Add a Mystic Enforcer and Dueling Grounds becomes like 10 times better.

QFT.

Silent Arbiter is basically Dueling grounds with a solid blocker attached..

..that can be swordsed/incinerated.

And oh yes, while gobbos can chumpblock to death, we also are attacking with, say, RWM, that really makes the difference.

RWM can be chumpblocked even more easily than Goyf. (Clicky.)

I don't say that Propaganda/D. Grounds are bad cards. Namely against Ichorid (with their "0 % solutions!" for permanent based hate) that card can win the game. But Goblins don't dump their hand into GY with Breakthrough, hoping for the next turn win... They can (and will) wait for their Grip and/or SGC to either get rid of the card, or win alternatively.

And to be honest.. even Ichorid with their Chain of Vapor, Wispmare, Ray of Revelation, "that-green-monster-with-CIP:destroy" and/or Angel of Despair can destroy Propaganda.

I think of those cards as a tools that help us win the game, not the ones that seal it. You need additional cards to make opponent nervous (be it Crypt, Hydroblast, etc.), because DG and/or PG alone is not enough.

Otoh - if my metagame would be swarmed by both Goblins and Ichorid, I would insert one of that card to my SB immediatelly. If your meta looks like that, than it is ok to play it.

[gustha]

My question is... where the hell my Stp are gone? I was sure I inserted them... and usually I don't drink (at least, not so much to forget stp in a list... ).

@dueling grounds: i don't pretend it's a card that seals the game, basically i didn't want 2 copies of jitte: they serve slightly different and sligthly similar purpose, while splitting between the 2 can offer, I think, a versatility 2 jitte can't offer (eg. t1 hierarch t2 dueling grounds is effective against ichorid, the same it's not true for jitte; while obviously dueling grounds buys some time against swarming aggro, but the gamebreaker here is jitte, etc.)

@ponder: 8 fetches shuffles the deck as well. I sincerely don't see the point.
I'll work on that stp's...

EDIT: here's some work

// Lands: 18
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Tundra
2 [UG] Island
2 [UG] Forest
1 [UG] Plains

// Creatures: 12
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
Removals: 4
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares

Permission: 11
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will

Draw: 10
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder

Tutor & toolbox: 5
1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [IN] Dueling Grounds
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

60 cards, and swords back. I can find no room for hierarch, and consequently I can find no room for daze, so I cut them. I miss the 2nd jitte SB. Or I can cut down the tutor and the dueling grounds (sigh!) for the second jitte and the second oring:
toolbox:
2 jitte
2 oring
1 explo
I know for sure there are a couple of dredge and a goblin/zoo infested meta, as well as landstill and other threshold. Maybe I should simply play landstill! ^^ But I'm a bit sick of playing the same deck, every now and then it's time to change...

Blue count: 21
Mana curve:
cc1: 18 (too high?)
cc2: 13 (too low? maybe I can cut dueling tutor for the 2nd jitte, but in this case dueling grounds is no more good as silver bullet)
cc3: 5
cc4: 1
cc5: 4

The sb looks solid. I'm thinking of adding 2 trinket mage md because they have good targets sb (yeah, they can all be etutored as well, and much faster...).
-1 tutor
-1 enforcer
+2 trinket mage
-1 dueling grounds
+1 jitte
Comments?

EDIT2: BTW, spell snare-daze occupy the same slots, and I'm not sure which one is better. Daze keeps us a turn back, while snare on the contrary let us gain a turn. Daze is good vs combo but is a little weaker now since there's no mana denial (waste+stifle) plan against other decks; snare gets much of the format, but the question is: anything cb+top doesn't already eat? On the other hand, spell snare is effective by turn1, cb top is online by turn 3 if you're luck, and anyway not fully availabe till turn 4. Daze shifts more further this timeline. Snare avoids other goyf to come down, but pridemage helps in goyf-stals; snare avoids opponent's cb to resolve, and pridemage too (yeah, it's great). Due to our relative lack of removal (only 4 swords, eventually EE and oring), snare acts a proactive spell in respect of intelligent creatures like confidant, daze usually not. Daze steals tempo (this is not a tempo version, though), snare gains it. Though the more I look the more I feel that the role which snare is intended to cover is already covered by other cards in the deck.

[spirit of the wretch]

-1 tutor
-1 enforcer
+2 trinket mage
-1 dueling grounds
+1 jitte
Comments?

With these changes you basically have the exact same list I played in a big tournament in Annecy (-ORing, + Top). (Here's the report)
The list is really solid, but I missed the Dazes in the Spell Snare slot. I debatet this issue a lot with my team member Clemens (Der_imaginäre_Freund) and we didn't come to the same conclusion, but I really like Daze for its flexibility, the CC2 and the psychological effect it has on your opponent. So if I were to play this deck again any time soon (which I probably won't), I'd cut the Spell Snares for Dazes.
But as I said, this choice mostly is a preference thing. Whatever you like better is fine =)

[gustha]

Yep, it's true! ^^ The list looks solid to me, although I'm to make some practice with a different mentality and I'm not usually a good topdecker (that's why I usually play control... ). I'm testing it and I miss daze too...snare is powerful, but it's more of a control then of an aggrocontrol deck, I think.
Just for curiosity, why aren't you going to re-play this deck any time soon? ^^

[elof]

Hi everyone!

I'm new to the thread and has only read a couple of pages yet but I'm thinking about jumping on the bandwagon and play UGw thres and I have a couple of questions.

What is the "standard" list and are there different approches? Are for example BANT decks the same or is that a more "aggro" hybrid?

Lorescale Coatl, have anybody tried him? Is he really good? I tried him and he was insane and meh from time to time and I havn't done a real gauntlet study.

Any other tips whould be fine!

Best regards
elof

[Aleksandr]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
2 [ON] Island (3)
1 [IN] Forest (1)
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [IN] Plains (1)

// Creatures
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 [ARB] Lorescale Coatl

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast

Gonna try this one tonight..

I like the exalted theme - manafixation and antiCB tech that makes our Goyfs bigger, recuring Ancestral Recall on wheels, RWM with one or double exalted races Burn all day long, total unconcern of GYs (except for Goyfs, but who cares, they grow fast enough.)

Things I don't like: three Dazes only (we need them fast, turn3 at latest..), no EE/Needle main, too many blue creatures that suck against gobos (namely Selkie), far less answers to turn1 Lackey (where are my Mongooses..?) and I also pity the fact that I cannot get at least two Sylvan Libraries in the deck... recuring Giant Growth with imprinted Brainstorm is kinda good, I heard... but the deck is not inflatable.

strange SB choices: 2x Needle against Eva Deed guys, 1x random Hydro = proxy StP that eventually eats DD/Bolt, Jitte, cause we play shroud creatures no more, no Kr. Grip. I have enough disenchant effects.. and some of them even fly, recur and with an exalted guy or two, they can be painful attackers.. No Crypt, I say f**k to Loam MU, also CB/MM is da tech against them (and MM laughs at Ad Nauseam), while Ichorid is autoloss (and even if it's more like 30/70 or even 50/50, I say damn it, no one plays it and it is inconsistent pile of crap. That wins on turn1 fair often - b4 I even have chance to play my hate -, so who cares...)