You could use 2 Firestorm main deck instead of the Tribes, and that gives you two spots for Wispmare in the SB.
Also, I don't see any reason to play less than 4 Breakthrough.
After going through the motions with this deck over 100x during the past week, I have settled on this list:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
4 Breakthrough
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Darkblast
SB:
4 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
4 Firestorm
3 Wispmare
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestor's Chosen
Ok, so I really never want to drop below 14 dredge cards going into g1. G2 and 3 depending on the matchup I can drop darkblast and such to get more hate cards in etc... Running 14 lands again helps the mulligans, also this formation gets me the highest chances of obtaining a strong opening grip since I run 7 Imp effects, 4 breakthrough and 3 study. This gives me a good chance at having: land, discard effect such as tribe/imp, and a study or breakthough, and a dredge card in my opening hand. Our turn 1's are really important g1. I want to make my turn 1 "keep" hands more frequent.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
I'm not really convinced that Unmask is as strong in this deck as it was in vintage or in LED Dredge imo, at least in the mainboard. Its mainboard slots take-up slots that thin-out the combo by replacing draw engines or discard outlets most of which meddles with the consistency of the deck. In most list, unmasks take-up slots of careful study, which i think is terrible since study has been the decks more powerful engines. Apart from this, Unmask requires you to pitch a combo card, either a therapy, Pimp, Thug/Darkblast, Ichorid, Bridge, all of which are great cards, I can only see myself pitching ichorid or thug/blast for this card, this makes it situational. Unmask is a great spell, I just don't think it's worth slowing down the deck down for it, especially on game 1s.Originally Posted by Yesmilord
I'm also curious to see if md firestorms are worth running over tribes. Although tribe is more efficient since it's a permanent outlet, it sacs to therapy and return, it attacks and blocks all which are great compared to board cleaners. I do think its great in metas full of merfolk, faeries, goblins, and hate bears (jailer, samurai of the pale curtain, teeg).
I've also been wanting to test out Witness in this deck, it seems great especially given that this deck has more utility slots than LED Decks. I'll try it in a split with a Sage and see if it works.
I don't really like the random fattie md because it doesn't win games now unlike sage or witness. This probably is a meta call or preference call but personally i don't like it md.
The deck looks really solid, just some of the things i've noticed:
*2 Paradise is terrible imo. Don't you find yourself time-walking yourself often because of the delay it brings? 1 is terrible enough for me, i can't imagine running two. Try citadel, its drawback is irrelevant since you usually win fast.
*4 Ichorid, don't you think it's too much? it's relatively dead in the opening hand and in the early parts of the game since you want to combo-out. In most cases you'd want to dredge into ichorid not draw into it.
*In a field of aggro try darkblasts instead of thugs and see if it works. My meta seems similar to yours, and it's been really great.
*The random fattie is cute but i don't think it efficient enough md since it doesn't win games
as for the sb, i'd probably take-out a firestorm and chain of vapor for two wispmares. You need wispmares, definitely ^^ Most lists of the deck have relatively the same skeletons so more or less sideboarding are just the same.
Goodluck with the deck, hope you kick-ass with it ^^
Last edited by bum_man; 05-09-2009 at 09:45 PM. Reason: fixed quotations
So I played this list yesterday to a nice 3-1 finish:
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Bridge Frome Below
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
4 Careful Study
2 Darkblast
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City Of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
All the usual suspects. I really didn't know what i was going to face, so I opted to split 2/2 darkblast and golgari thug, since i really wanted the 12 dredgers.
Empyrial Archangel proved to be really good as won me 2 games against merfolk and one against sligh/burn.
It was all the way slower than i thought it wwould be, but having the mana and the means to hold the game until you go off, or just beatdown with ichorid or archangel was really worth it. A friend of mine told me that i would never think a dredge list could be "so consistent".
The sideboard was completely random as i didn't had all the cards then:
2 Crippling Fatigue
4 Duress
2 Wispmare
1 Ray Of Revelation
3 Echoing Truth
1 Chain Of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
So, besides the sideboard, wich as to be completed (+3 chain of vapor, maybe unmask, all for wispmares), what do you guys think about my list ? Any sugestion ?
Thx (Sorry about my english)
Good finish, Merfolk is a shitty matchup, especially with maindeck Relics. I am wondering why you chose to play Archangel over Cephalid Sage. I have said this repeatedly about playing other reanimation targets, why reanimate a fatty when you can just win? DR the Sage and mill 17-18 cards from your deck and you will hit something. Maybe you have to DR the Sage again but why do you want a fatty when you could just win the game right there? You will also notice a big difference in speed when you play 1-2 Cephalid Sage.
Everything else looks good, Darkblast should only be run if you expect a lot of Affinity, Goyf Sligh, and Goblins (both staples in my meta) otherwise the Thug is better.
I have been running 3x Therapy for a while but after a lot of testing and tournament play, I really like 4. While this is not something that makes or breaks the deck, 4x Therapy is very nice to have.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
I played Archangel mostly because i didn't had any sage... But i like to have a different win condition, it might be useful when facing some matchups or specific cards like EE or echoing truth.
Cabal Therapy was really really good all the way but i never felt the need for the 4º one.
And for the sideboard, what do you recommend ?
SB is all meta dependent but I usually run:
4x Wispmare
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Chain of Vapor
You can mix and match the card numbers but the SB MUST have Pithing Needles in it. This is what I run when I play the deck. You really don't need alternate win cons, Ichorid dominates and if you want to DR a fatty just bring back a 15/15+ GGT. Don't worry about EE and bounce, they answer your army once, but can't compete with constant threats.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
I'm running a non led list and i just switched from a landbase of
3 underground sea
4 cephalid colliseum
3 city of brass
7 onslaught sac lands
to
4 gemstone mine
4 city of brass
4 cephalid colliseum
because i realised that the underground seas plus sac lands were worth 300 or so, so i sold the underground sea and am about to do the same with the sac lands, plus i dont have the leds of the money to drop on them.
this is the current list i am working with:
potatoes: 14
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
meat:
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
2 Cephalid Sage
4 Breakthrough
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Darkblast
SB:
3 null rod
4 Firestorm
4 Wispmare/ray of revalation
4 Chain of Vapor
this is the mess I am looking at, i think this is by now the agreed up mana base, as for the three ichorid im not sure if that is optimal if there are enough black things to eat or not, joe i saw in you new optimal list you cut DR and CS down to 2 and 1 respectively and i am not sure i am a fan of that, the point of (imho) of ichorid plus 7 sac outlets is to ensure you can DR moderately early in to a CS in order to win more consistantly without LED. with one CS how can you usualy dredge the rest of your graveyard in a timely manner. I am only running 10 dredgers, I am hoping that with 10 dredgers plus 10 card drawers (counting colliseum) i can get one into the yard plus the sac outlet on the board (tireless or Pimp), I am hoping this is enough. any comments on md would be great.
as to the sideboard i notic most people have been in favor of wispmare over ray of revelation? i am unsure of the reasoning behind this do they hope to evoke and DR? it seems like you wouldn't hardcast it to flashback cabal but I may be wrong. anyone with any insight for this please give me an explantion. thanks for all the help guys.
For you version, you should probally add a 3rd study, you might frequently have some hands without any draw ressources.
You should add the 11th dredger for the constancy. If your playing firestorm in SB, golgary thug might just be better then darkblast in lot of cases.
Also, I think 2 sages is way too much overkill. You don't want to DR into 2 of them, if you DR in one of them, it's usually win. 1 MD would probally be better.
For your SB, I would probally run the 4th Null rod instead of the 4th wishpmare or the 4th Chain of vapor.
The good thing about wishpmare is, if the guy puts a T1 leyline, you can most likely answer it the next the turn. And you would need for another land for the ray of relevetion.
Also, wishpmare can be dread returned in some extreme cases.
Plus, if you evoke wishpmare, you will have the tokens from bridge.
I've been testing this deck for about 2 months now and finally checked the source to see if people had started to discuss LEDless dregde yet.
After reading the 12 pages I thought I would post my list and I hope people will discuss what they think and ask me questions to as why.
// Lands
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
// Creatures
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
3 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Reveillark
4 Stinkweed Imp
// Spells
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Breakthrough
// Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Pithing Needle
4 Wispmare
4 Null Rod
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Darkblast
1 Inkwell Leviathan
I will break it all down as soon as my finals pass and I get the time, but I'm very happy with my list.
I might cut a land to the board and up the Golgari Thug up to 4.
The sideboard is also not set in stone, but it is the stage it is now through rigorous testing it is not just a pile as it might look.=P
Last edited by jimirynk; 05-13-2009 at 09:32 PM.
potatoes: 14
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
meat:
2 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 golgari thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
2 Cephalid Sage
4 Breakthrough
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
SB:
3 Wispmare
4 null rod
4 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor
Thanks for the thug and wispmare tip, i had forgot wispmare triggered bridge, as for sage the reason i have two is because i want to almost garuntee i have one in the graveyard on the second or third turn, in order to DR it and go off as soon a possible. I think the two CS help give the deck some consistency that the LED version lacks. Joe C I would really like to hear your thoughts on the two sages as you list recently dropped from 3dr and 2 sage to 2 dr and 1 sage it seems like you would be going more for ichorid beatdown and the combo kill more often because of this. In order to add a third careful study i also dropped an ichorid and swapped out the darkblasts for the thugs as thug can be eaten by ichorid.
any thoughts would be much appreciated.
@ jimirynk, have you tried cephalid sage over lark i think general concensus was lark was win more as oppossed to win games you shouldn't. other wise everything looks pretty solid to me
in regard to your sideboard though the last 4 seem slightly "off to me" i guess the leviathan is a good DR target if nothing else but the singleton echoing truth, calm, and chain of vapor seem next to useless with no way to get them into hand besides drawing them, you may be better off trying just 3 chain of vapor? idk some people run singletons in adition to eternal witness to reanimate (as far as im concerned thats fairly janky) but i dont see that in your list.
Last edited by hwtcharger07; 05-13-2009 at 02:11 PM. Reason: to comment on jimirynks build
@hwtcharger07: im not sure but i think your list lacks 2 two cards. Thats only a 58 card maindeck. I suggest running the 3rd ichorid and the 3rd thug in those slots. Both are for consistency, in hitting dredgers and hitting ichorids alot with ichorid fodder. Just check if I'm correct. ^^ How has firestorm been for you? Personally I'm not a big fan of firestorms since i strongly dislike having to go to the sideboard just to look for answer to troublesome critters. I like the two sages, this deck returns two sages more often than people would think, especially post-board.
@claudio.r: your list looks great. How has the split been for you? I tried a list with a split and it seemed to make the deck a little inconsistent. I weren't able to get the blasts when i needed them and the thugs doesn't seem to be at its most effective. Just looking for your experience with it. What decks were you up against? Your results just made me think of testing the split again.
How was not having sage around? Im not really sure if that works well because once your breakthrough gets countered you're off to the aggro plan that often times is just not fast enough. It also makes your turn 2-3 kills a lot less common. I can't imagine this deck being as consistent as it should be without the drawing power that sage gives. I think the sage is better than the archangel because it wins the game in a lot more situations. Oh and the duress in the sb, why? ^^
@jimirynk: how is reveillark been compared to sage? The dredging power that sage gives make reveillark and the creatures you return with it a lot more relevant, like say bigger GGTs. I feel that sage is slightly better against blue over the 4th breakthrough just because its another way to get the deck running especially post-board against blue. How was the non-flashback singletons for you? It seems a tad bit random to have singletons that have different sb roles. Inkwell is great as a return target, its mvp against blue if ever you get to return it, i'm actually thinking of testing one in the sb.
The deck is really starting to see a significant amount of play now. Hope it starts kicking-ass in big tournaments ^^
@bum man you are my new best friend i was trying to figure out how to get in the third ichorid and the third thug i did not even notice my list was short.
New final list:
potatoes: 14
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
meat:
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 golgari thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
2 Cephalid Sage
4 Breakthrough
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
SB:
3 Wispmare
4 null rod
4 tormod's crypt
4 Chain of Vapor
I feel very comfortable with this list besides having just the 14 lands this list i think is pretty tight Bum man in responce to firestorm i havent even tested it, i hear it is pretty ood although it might be sub par in my meta theres a lot of other reanimator, dredge, combo, and counter top running around so i think im going to replace them with crypt, i suppose leyline would be superior but i dont have the cash for that atm what does everyone feel is better vs dredge and other reanimators leyline or tormod's crypt.
thanks
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
2 Cephalid Sage
3 Breakthrough
2 Tireless Tribe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Darkblast
SB:
4 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
4 Firestorm
3 Wispmare
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestor's Chosen
Dear God I hate and love this deck at the same time...... After going through the motions with the deck again I came to settle on this list for the time being.
hwtcharger07: as you can see, I have returned to the domain of 2x Sage 3x Dread Return. The turn 2 wins are amazingly increased by this.
I wish I could justify the 4th breakthrough. I refuse to go below 14 dredgers, I mull WAY less than before since I put the thugs at 4 and the 2 darkblasts main(which can catch people off guard g1 and has come in handy several times). So far I am loving the maindeck and the board. I may get a chance to play this in NY on the 30th(kinda depends if I actually go or not)
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
The lark was a sage for a week or two of testing and I won most games without DR sage at all and then game two end up siding out sage and FKZ. Running lark helps you win without your bridges very easily, if you expect a lot of goblins, merfolk and goyf sligh I think lark might just be better. The games were I did get sage online it was pretty winmore and I always could have also won if it was a lark.
The one echoing calm I cut for a darkblast.
My board is made up of the essential 4x imo this is 4 wispmare vs. leyline, and 4 null rods vs. the e.e., relic and crypt split.
I feel that you either side in 4 of wisp or rods and then 1-2 of whatever else is needed, this might be wrong but it makes me have 6 cards vs. every tier deck.
Decks were you would side in 2 cov my list sides in 1 cov and one echoing truth. But after testing vs. decks with chalice and leyline I found siding in 4 wisp 1 ancient grudge and 1 echoing truth to be better than the 1 cov.
Also I have never understood the firestorm in the board. Is it vs the gobs matchup? I already have a great gobs matchup do to lark so I think that is why I’ve never tested the spot.
Am I missing something about the firestorm?
@ Joe C why the chosen in the board? I play it in my meta do to the high turn out of mono red burn but I don’t think I will be seeing a lot of that in a established meta. ;/
Is it vs combo and sligh, or am I missing something else?
all right, I'm coming back to M:TG and I;ve been reading up on this deck because it's the only Legacy deck that you can max out purely in foil cards.
couple questions:
Could the addition of Street Wraith help the deck out if there was a way to include it. It just seems that a virtually free 1-for-1 draw that acts as Ichorid food and dredge abuser is part of a recipe for a synergy sandwich.
could SB Angels Grace help against TES matchups as it seems to be one of the more unfavorable matchups that seems to be relatively frequent? It seems (if I recall correctly) that once they cast tendrils, if you can stop it, it's over.
Is Solidarity of any concern?
Is Sage a deck essential or more of a win more-type of card?
In Mother Russia, metagame breaks you!
I doubt this deck has the space to use Street Wraith. The card seems good on paper, but it won't give you more keepable hands, as it only supplements your plan.
Angel's Grace doesn't work against Tendrills. They'll just put you at 0 life and you die in your own turn. Probably the best thing you can do to fight Combo is either adding Duress or Thoughtseize to the sideboard.
No one really plays Solidarity. Also, you probably have a quite positive matchup already. The deck has a hard time dealing with multiple Cabal Therapy's. This deck is a little slower than the other Ichorid, so it's probably a little closer. Expect to win about 65% I'd say.
Has River Kelpie been tested by you guys? It seems pretty strong that it can make twice as much zombies, and that it can flashback a Therapy twice.
Does this deck need Breakthrough as a discard outlet, given that you already play 4 Study, 4 Imp and 3 Tribe? Because I'd really love to run Brainstorm in this deck. It can double as a combo piece, it puts dredgers, Moeba's and whatever back on top, and it gives better search for your sideboard.
As a final question, is Null Rod better than Needle? How many decks actually split Relic and Crypt?
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
@Weekend Daddy:
The deck doesn't have enough space to play Street Wraiths. The draw spells it has are already the best for the deck in my opinion. Adding Street Wraiths calls for a shift in how the deck plays.
It you want to stop storm combo, you can board in CotVs for TES, i play TES too and the deck seems to struggle if it can't play 0cc mana sources post-ad nauseam. Hopefully the CotVs delay it enough for you to therapy away their hand and win before they do.
As for Solidarity, you can just therapy them away and win before they do. They aren't really that popular now like Bahamuth said. They shouldn't be taken lightly either but they aren't one of this decks worst match-ups.
The Sage is essential for the deck to win more consistently at just about the same speed as its LEDed counterparts. It compensates the dredging power lost through not running the LED-Breakthrough-DA combo. Its essentially and arguably the mvp of the deck imo.
@Bahamuth:
River Kelpie is a great card that can possibly dredge more than sage. The problem with it is you need other cards to make it work. Without a therapy or return in the graveyard it is relatively useless. I have encountered situations like those often. It may work better in the LED versions because they have DA which also trigger it. In this deck, sage is better because it runs the deck and wins on its own.
Breakthrough functions as a draw engine with only a secondary purpose of discarding. Against brainstorm its a superior draw engine because it draws more and in digging for answers just pay 1 for X and it draws one more card too. Its utility since it can discard is what makes it better than brainstorm imo.
Concerning null rod and needle, im not really sure because i haven't tested null rod yet. Some fish and red decks split relic and crypt. It also shuts down SDT, EE, chrome moxen, jittes, shackles and alot more cards than needles. Needles are faster and easier to play around daze. Just needle the crypt or relic in the board then win. Joe_C has already played with null rods he can elaborate more on this. ^^
It is for combo and aggro such as goyf sligh, and its solid against goblins as well. A 4/4 first striker is hard for them to deal with. It really is at the moment my only other "out" against combo other than null rod. I dont think that I can give the deck a "good" percentage against storm combo unless I devoted the entire sb to that match, so I pretty much try to win quick and hope they dont kill me first if I do play against storm
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
After reading and non stop testing since I've changed my list again.
// Lands
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
// Creatures
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
3 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 SAGE
4 Stinkweed Imp
// Spells
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough
I cut the lark for the sage and I'm still a little iffy I test vs a lot of tribal decks and aggro loam and lark has just been better for me do to the fact you need 0 bFb to race the decks..
I put the thugs up to 4 because the extra dredger makes hands got that much better, but I had to cut a breakthrough to make room..
@ Joe C are list are very similar but I refuse to go below 7 permint discard outlets(imp, tribe). I goldfished your deck about 50 times last night and hands were I had a troll, darkblast, and a study I just kept thinking wouldn't a tribe be superior? many decks just scoup to a first turn imp and tribal really hates to see a tribe.
Also I saw your post about you wanting to go to jupiter on the 30th, their is ZERO combo players there, besides 2-3 hightide type decks with white for chants.
Last time I went their was for the sapphire went undefeated to top 8 me vs teammate round one in top 8, he wins the mox. The meta is a lot of thresh, merfolk, eva green, landstill, team america, dreadstill..
what I'm getting at is a lotttt of cbtop and islands, it has the combo players scared(sry bryant cook).
You might be smiling for that fact but with 2 merfolk in top 8 and my friends list including goyf.. I would like to make my list as good vs folk as possible if I even think about playing this there.
@ everyone.
I've been playing dredge since I've started playing legacy along side with every other tier deck out there.
But now I'm jumping to the point,Everyone ready
DREDGE WINS GAME ONE
If not your either Bad at magic, the deck, horrible meta game choice, or your list is bad.
Dredge is all about games to and 3 and this is why I'm playing LEDless dredge the ability to run strong side cards like null rod push it over the top for me.
So why ever run less then 4 therapy and 4 study's? They might stop you from consistently winning turn 2 but odds are you were going to win turn 3.
Either way your to slow to race combo, if you want to win turn 2 but LEDs and DA in the deck. But therapy and study help you games 2 and 3 which are ALWAYS a uphill battle.
I'll stop ranting and let people talk.
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