Dually noted.Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Form is a decent idea I guess. Just a bit risky though. Although any deck that runs Humility and drops it via h-genesis and then you drop Form definitely screws the creature win for them, and you won't need it. That's kinda savage tech.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
Did you discuss this :
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
?
It's a good answer to humility, and other stuff imho. Ok I got it. Hypergenesis does not say permanent, neither Show and Tell by the way. Only Eureka enables it.
Others answers to humility and moat and circle of protection: U.
Aura Fracture, Aura of Silence, Aura Shards, Seal of Primordium (for the Eureka build).
Aura shards looks good. Form of the dragon as a SB card is also not that bad against control decks. The pb is that it does not have shroud and that it spends 4 turns to kill.
Yeah, that is a great find! And the first argument, that makes me consider Eureka because an early Nicol Bolas is such a bomb. With a Spirit Guide you can start on turn 3 to destroy everything your opponent gets on the board.
But if you include him, it will be problematik if you only draw Show and Tell or Hypergenesis :/
Seal of Primordium is bad because it can screw up your Ardent Plea. I like Aura of Silence, but I think the best candidates for the Humility removal are:
O-Ring
Deed
Form
Aura of Silence
In that order.
I think O-Rings should be maindecked. If you want to use deed you can, but I feel that it's too risky because of the amount of mana you have to pump into it to kill stuff like Moat/Humility.
Aura is just a better O-Ring, but less useful in a lot of matchups. I suppose if you wanted to SB it, it would/could absolutely wreck Stax/Stompy matchups.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
Maybe Vindicate or Maelstrom Pulse over O-Ring? We're using a rainbow base and those two play nicer with Pillar of the Paruns if you happen to be running it.
Maybe, but not useable via Hypergenesis. That's what makes O-ring better here I think.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
I like this one, mainly because of APNAP; you see, Humility negates all cresture-based hate put out, and then is RFG'd. That right there makes O-ring some kinds of awesome.
What are the current lists for this deck?
The lists are a page, maybe two back. There's one by Emidln and one or two other people.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
For those of you too lazy to look into the past to see lists, here is the breakdown of the lists thus far:
My personal list:
This list wants to drop one or two creatures that should be able to win the game on their own over the course of a couple of turns while being immune to any targeted removal Also, you can just put 20 damage on the table and win next turn. This is the list that people have been working with the most.4 Angel of Despair
2 Empyrial Archangel
4 Simic Sky Swallower
3 Inkwell Leviathan
3 Progenitus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
3 Forbidden Orchard
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Show and Tell
3 Hypergenesis
4 Violent Outburst
4 Ardent Plea
Sideboard
4 Krosan Grip
2 Sudden Death
2 Form of the Dragon
1 Thunder Dragon
3 Bogardan Hellkite
3 City of Solitude
This list aims to drop creatures that are going to beat the turn they come down. Variations on this list use Wound Reflection and maindecked Bogardan Hellkite.
The major discussions with the deck up to this point have been:
1. Stratergy to win - We're all going all-in, the question is which way is better to go all-in with. There really hasn't been a list proposed for it yet, but some people are talking of using a 2-card cmobo like Pestermite and Kiki-Jiki.
2. Answers to cards the deck doesn't want to see - There are a lot of cards that can cause problems for any build of the deck, Chalice of the Void, Meddling Mage, Orim's Chant (acts like a Hinder) Etersworn Cannonist, Rule or Law, and most of all, hard counters. Proposed answers to these are generally Ingot Chewer and Krosan Grip for applicable problems. Oblivion Ring, Vindicate and Malestrom pulse for anything that sticks on the table, Shriekmaw and Sudden Death for creatures. Many people find space for Force of Will and Misdirection in their deck, the roles of these cards are obvious. Vendillion Clique and Unmask have been discussed as the deck's disruption suite although I cannot speak for either card. Dosan and City of Solitude were suggested as a means to battle counters, it hasn't been discussed much recently, but I'm certain that as time goes on the cards will be looked at more.
3. Mana Base - Pillar of the Paruns sucks, that's an opinion. Its great if you want to play the cascade cards, but it sucks if you want to play any of your answers to problems. Most people seem to be content with 4 Gemstone Mine, 4 City of Brass, and the rest of the mana base is up in the air. I personally like Forbidden orchard as its downside isn't very important, others favor invasion Comes-into-play-tapped lands. When building your mana base, try to keep in mind that 1. Tendo Ice Bridge is the worst land ever. 2. You will come to times when you want to suspend Hypergenesis.
4. Non-Hypergenesis means of getting cards onto the table. Show and Tell, Eureka and Defense of the Heart seem to be the suggestions up to this point. Show and Tell is the quickest to play, but gives you the smallest bonus. Eureka will let you play Planeswalkers, but if you're using planeswalkers, you have a very sub-par list because most of the time you won't be playing Eureka.
If you're curious what the decks match-ups are - as far as I know I'm the only one who has reported any testing with it, the deck flat-out wins against decks that do not use Force of Will. I'm untested against Dragonstompy and Stax lists, but you should be able to imagine that if they don't drop a Sphere or Chalice at 0 (highly unlikely if they don't know what you're playing) then you're in good shape and should be able to explode. Decks with heavy discard vary from game to game. Hypnotic Specter is very difficult to win against, but a few Hymns and thoughtseize are winnable if you're running a high desnity of cards that cascade or drop something into play.
Now you've been briefed in where the discussion is up to this point. On a parting note, to make yourself not look like you don't know what's going on, do yourself a favor and refrain ever suggest a card that costs between 0-2 unless you've really thought about how this deck operates and believe this can add to the deck's ability to win.
There's also Natural Order / Pattern of Rebirth, Sneak Attack, Through The Breach, and Corpse Dance.
Necrologia could be interesting in a deck like this. (Necrologia -> ESG/SSG -> Violent Outburst -> Hypergenesis)
So I played this deck a few weeks ago. I'm not sure of the list, but it ran the traditional creature package that's been discussed here: biggest, baddest creatures that get to be played for free and then wreak havoc. The largest problem I found with the deck was waiting a turn to kill can sometimes mean you're just going to loose. Between sitting across some idiot who's playing MBC with 8 edict effects to combo decks that can just win out while you're waiting to attack. Anyway, while rummaging through some older cards I had an epiphany about a potential creature package to run with this deck. This is just a possible suggestion:
Magister Sphinx x1
Ball Lightning x4
Groundbreaker x4
Blistering Firecat x4
Blitz Hellion x4
Summoner's Pact x4
The justifications for all of these creatures are simple. The lowest power for any of them is 6, they all trample and haste making them a must deal with threat. Additionally, cascading with Demonic Dread and Violent Outburst suddenly become very relevant to the creature's you're dropping. Ball Lightning and Groundbreaker both become lethal in sets of three if you're using Violent Outburst adding to the threat level. Additionally, Demonic Dread even becomes a relevant card because most decks won't have but a single blocker, maybe two, by the time you resolve Hypergenesis. Stopping one of their creatures from blocking means that you'll be able to combo off for the win a heck of a lot easier. In a world where Goyf, Coatl... and other big creatures can grow fairly quickly, stopping them from blocking can be clutch.
Two other additional things.
*Summoner's Pact is there for two reasons. The primary reason is to tutor up Magister Sphinx when you're going off. Setting their life total at 10 when you're about to unleash an army of Ball Lightning seems really unfair and a great way to win. On a secondary level, if you have the Sphinx in hand, you can tutor up an additional ball lightning effect.
*Creature selection: in addition to the aforementioned warrants for these cards (Trample, Haste, Powerful) they have the ability to be relevant when drawn. What I mean is that if you don't Hypergenesis or you don't kill them when you do, being able to play a ball lightning effect seems like a really good idea. I mean the casting cost break down for the creatures is:
-8 at 3cc
-4 at 4cc
-4 at 5cc
Compared to other deck lists out there, it seems to be a little bit better of an idea to be able to cast the creatures you draw as opposed to top decking a Progenitus and simply waiting to draw into a cascade effect. Furthermore, the deck's mana base suddenly becomes R/G/b instead of r/g/b/u/w meaning you're mana base doesn't have to be subject to 12 city of brass type effects. This allows the development an actual mana base as well as the use of fetch lands to thin the deck out.
There are some drawbacks to this strategy. Their creature removal becomes relevant because none of these have any sort of protective ability. So the will get to use their StP and Snuff Out which can be problematic. Additionally, none of these creatures fly meaning they're going to crash into something, but with 6 being the lowest power its going to hit and kill nearly every traditionally played creature. Instant speed board sweepers are very problematic (Volcanic Fallout). Furthermore, a lot of the other creature packages are heavy Blue which allow for the use of FoW and Misdirection as protection for the combo. This list would lack that. The use of Unmask and Snuff Out could be added which would mitigate the loss somewhat, but the down in power from that perspective is undeniable. However, ask Master Shake already noted, if HyperCascade is going to loose to decks with FoW anyway, at least this version is going to be able to play threats outside of cascading which could offset the lack of FoW by giving the deck an alternative way to win. Additionally being able to play huge threats repeatedly means the pressure is constantly come them instead of boom and bust cycle of building to a critical mass and either winning or loosing after cascading.
Two issues with this:
You can fizzle on a Summoner's Pact, and Summoner's Pact can only get green creatures.
The idea isn't terrible, but are Ball Lightnings stronger than Hellkites? The Blitz Hellions and Blistering Firecats I can understand a little bit more, but some Dragons which can blow up 1-2 creatures of your opponent's board seems much stronger than just trading with a Goyf.
Ball lightnings are definitely weaker than Hellkite Overlord, Karrhus, Tyant of Jund, both of which can be fetched with Summoner's Pact.
True points. However, if they counter the cascade spell or stop hypergenesis, the hand is filled with a bunch of high casting cost cards that are virtually dead. Plus, while Ball Lightning may seem weak compared to the dragons, it does allow you to play through the Moon effects which can be helpful. The point was to give the deck a route to victory outside of resolving its cascade spells. The ability to play threats that you top deck without the help of enabler spells like Show and Tell etc makes the deck better able to have a back up route to victory.
Summoners Pact could be Worldly Tutor which isn't as good, but could be used to get the Sphinx.
Both Summoner's Pact and Worldly Tutor are a nonbo with the Cascade Spells. The Ball Lightning package looks cool though. What is your mana base like for that build?
@ LennonMarx
Ya, just realized that about the tutors. With the inability to use tutors in mind, I would cut the Sphinx in favor of something like Thunderblust. Anyway, a rough deck list might look something like this:
Creatures: (18)
Ball Lightning x4
Groundbreaker x4
Blistering Firecat x4
Blitz Hellion x4
Thunderblust x2
Cascade Spells/Combo (10)
Violent Outburst x4
Demonic Dread x4
Hypergenesis x2
Protection Spells/Awesome Spells/Whatever (12)
Unmask x4
Dark Triumph x4
Snuff Out x4
Mana Base (20)
Simian Spirit Guide x4
Wooded Foothill x4
Bloodstained Mire x2
Taiga x4
Badlands x4
Bayou x2
If you're lucky enough to be dropping a Simian Spirit Guide via Hypergenesis and then sac it to Dark Triumph off of a Violent Outburst, then all of your creatures are swinging at +3 damage which is pretty good.
what i don't get with the haste creature base or the combo bases...is what if the opponent doesn't put anything into play with the hypergenesis...
If you play it and lay down a ball lightning or one-piece to a two card combo, the opponent will simply not put anything down denying you a chance to win...
Because what you say is what Eureka and Hypergenesis seem to do, but not what they actually do.
Relevant Ruling:
Each player gets a chance to put a card in play starting with you and going around the table to the left (unless your multiplayer variant defines a different ordering). A player may decline to put a card into play when it is their turn. The spell ends when all players decline in a row. [D'Angelo 2002/01/10]
You're going to want to make sure this does what you want it to - Hypergenesis can't put Planeswalkers into play.
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