The real thing about an early Moon is that it stops your first cantrips/mysticals. However, doesn't hinder yuor combo, since you only need 1 black/blue mana and some red mana. The black mana can be taken off Petal, Chrome Mox and LED.Originally Posted by evilchen
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Yeah thats what i ment with "slowing you down"
Only thing i forgot was Chrome Mox sorry!
Just play out artifact mana or Empty the Warrens. Most decks packing Magus of the Moon don't play 'Clasm effects.
I' d like to know one thing: how is it correct to sideboard against, say, decks not packing Counterspell or Counterbalance ? Because i saw the statistics and most of the people tend to side out orim's chant in favor of shattering sprees ( to foresee, say, chalices and canonists), leaving in duress, but is it really correct? Assuming we're on the draw (since it should be very likely that we have won against a nonblue deck g1), if an opponent on t1 places chalice at 0 on the board, personally i'm not going to duress him on my turn to see if he has another pesky permanent, but im going to cantrip to find a solution/another way to go around (if possible), instead. What i mean is: can't orim's chant be universally good? it stops nonblue decks from playing relevant stuff like chalice, canonist or mage/teeg, it can save some lives for Ad Nauseam thanks to his kicker, so i find it to never be a dead card.
I consider it the best protection spell for thi deck, it has pratically no limits to do what it aims for: to make you stay alive, and to allow you comboing off despites all forms of hate.
Another thing is: has anyone tested the full set of ponders? I have done so far, and, despises sometimes sticking with a double cantrip in my hand, which slows me down a lot, i found that ponder gives a great hand to dig the topdeck in order to combo out quite fastly, and of course it adds consistency and a shuffle effect post brainstorm. I think it may be worth considering testing it in the Chain of Vapor slot, or do you think the deck is already set up in the perfect wat which balances consistency and speed?
P.S. this topic has almost reached score 100.000
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While Orim's Chant stalls a turn or 'time walks', it's often just better to have an answer than a stall tactic. Orim's Chant is also clunky against decks that aren't blue. However, I often leave in one chant often. As a Mystical or Infernal tutor target for after I ETW.
I used to play 4 Ponder, but I prefer an answer in Chain of Vapor. The deck is consistant enough as it is and could use an answer/storm engine/mana enabler.Another thing is: has anyone tested the full set of ponders? I have done so far, and, despises sometimes sticking with a double cantrip in my hand, which slows me down a lot, i found that ponder gives a great hand to dig the topdeck in order to combo out quite fastly, and of course it adds consistency and a shuffle effect post brainstorm. I think it may be worth considering testing it in the Chain of Vapor slot, or do you think the deck is already set up in the perfect wat which balances consistency and speed?
P.S. this topic has almost reached score 100.000
Bryant: With Goblins on the way back and Merrow running over lots of decks via their aggro approach with many counters, Dragon Stompy is in fact boarding Pyroclasms at this point.
Competent Dragon Stompy players understand that a blood moon effect forces the TES player to go EtW in most situations, and now with the inclusion of Pyroclasm in their board, will opt to put it in. Why not just run a Pyroclasm of your own to wipe out Magii and other pesky bears?
I don't have an answer for a Blood Moon other than that singleton Chain of Vapor Bryant already mentioned, or use Moxen and Petals to get your black mana rolling.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
@ Bryant: i don't want to result as an ass-licker (as many other on this thread, tbh), but playing this deck, i really start to appreciate it; despite this, i feel the opening primer is kinda outdated, especially in the parts concerning Matchups, and ways to play the deck. You know, after Merfolks and Counterbalance (especially Dreadstill and White Thresh aka Bant) decks has come up, perhaps it could be a good idea if you would give your opinion about TES against these decks, and also some tips. It's not really because i can't play the deck, since I have progressively become very close and confident with it; it would be to give people who'd like to begin playing storm combo a complete depiction of the strengths , the weaknesses and the mechanis behind this deck. And, of course, it would be also a quite effective way to promote people playing this, too.
I don't know whether you're interested or not into spreading your own creation with other players, i just threw in here this proposal, because i fell it's a shame this deck isn't played enough, since it could pull off decent results in specific metagames. Maybe we could change things a bit, in this way.
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As requested, the opening post has been updated. It now includes my current decklist (not the one listed below), 10 new sample hands for you (feel free to play them out in the thread), and new match-ups. If you want me to add something to the match-ups or the opening post let me know.
This past weekend, I played in my first event since GP:Chicago. I ended up taking third losing round 1 and Top 4 to the same person - Doug Mckay. He was playing a Mono Green elf Stompy deck packing MD Chalice, Trinisphere, and Thorn. I won both Game one's then proceeded to loses all post board games, but never to him. I would get an answer, cast it, then cast Nauseum at 12, 13, or 14 according to my notes and not hit anything. So... it's not a terrible match-up, but not a great one. I just needed better Nauseum flips.
This is what I played...
Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Underground Sea
Spells
4 Orim’s Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Mystical Tutor
2 Ad Nauseum
3 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Chain of Vapor
SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Duress
SB:4 Pyroblast
SB:1 Red Elemental Blast
SB:3 Shattering Spree
SB:1 Chain of Vapor
There were a few sideboard changes that I made after the event, if you're interested, check out the opening post. One change was I was playing too many Red Blasts, I couldn't board them all in.
EDIT: The source didn't save the new opening post. It'll be up soon.
Hehe I have your deck build and sitting in a deck box...damn thing is hard to learn just playing it solo, can't imagine tournament play. I swore I would keep practicing because I want to bring this to my local shop
First time I put it together and tried to play it I was like wtf, what a waste of $...I recant
In all honesty, all you really need to do is gold fish the deck a bunch and play it out solo.
You can also pretend that an opponent has different forums of disruption against you, and make yourself play through it.
Who cares if she was dead, we did her anyway...
Yea that is what I do. Sometimes I feel like I got a bad draw(s), but I am probably not noticing a path a could be taking to combo out. Its a love hate relationship at this point.
Most of the comments aren't true for a good ANT list. Like this one: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25459
(This/good) ANT also has some advantages. It has place for 8 protectionspells main, while still having a consistent turn 3 win. This doesn't help much in the CB MU, but a lot against Landstill/MUC/Merfolk and other blue CBless decks. Landstill and MUC are good MU's, Merfolk even when ANT is played well.
Fetches also have a big advantage. Brainstorm becomes a lot better, Ponder becomes better and Cabal Ritual becomes a lot better. You still have versatility with Chant->IGG/AdN and EtW in the board.
ANT isn't bad. But I must confess that after looking at your latest list, the two are very similar and such TES is also pretty good.
Team Nijmegen
@ Bryant: So with the new list do you ever find yourself missing the Cabal Rits? I mean i know they were a bit inconsistent (either spectacular or garbage) but they were still accel (although you compensated by upping the land count)
Also, how much have you played the new list since you still have 4x mox and 3x tutor now. I know AdN off the top is redic good but is the card disadvantage causing you to mull more often?
I'm not saying there aren't advantages of ANT over TES, however, I don't consider fetchlands to be a great one in today's match-ups. While the extra shuffle is nice don't get me wrong. I'd rather not be down a land against Thresh/Merfolk/Team America.
I know you like your own ANT list, however, I was looking at the archetype as a whole. Not a specific list.
I haven't missed it at all, it was always the first card I boarded out. Not taking the additional 2 damage is nice because you can often dig deeper.
I have only played it a week or so, the card disadvantage hasn't hurt me yet.
Very well done, Mr. Bryant. Fulfilling my request is one thing you won't regret of, trust me. Moreover, it will encourage more people to pick up this deck or, at least, to watch at and thinking twice it before picking up ANT xD (but, still, who knows..)
You didn't post all the matchups, so if you have time, it 'd be great if you did it ( i see some important MUs are missing like Landstill, Dragon Stompy, Pseudo Pikula or Eva Green decks); despite this, i wanna ask you a question: why did you write to take out Brainstorms against blue based? I mean, now that you added 1 more Mystical, brainstorm seems able to be more optimized.. Did you mean Ponder perhaps?
And yes, i see somehow TES is taking more the shape of a 4 color ANT (the more mystical, the more quantity and dual lands..).. I hope this, at least, will reduce the times when you open with no landers or terrible hands. Last thing: you cut 1 Infernal, for the situations where you draw 2 of them and can't go off wasting time because of the hellbent issue, i suppose. But didn't you find times when it was burning wish to be more a weight than IT? I mean, Tutor at least can grab you more mana accels or protections, while wish can't grab mana accels, and mayrandomly give mana problems ( especially now that you are relying on 3 dual lands and not anymore on a fully rainbowed manabase).
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I had more match-ups, but it didn't save. I'll do more, but I can't promise how many. No, I meant Brainstorm, Ponder is often better against blue. You're searching for cards, if they're not there you have a shuffle effect built into the card. I cut an Infernal, because I often board out two. It's dead in multiples and sucks to draw sometimes. Burning Wish is just more valueable, it's a threat against blue. Players often feel obligated to counterspell it.
Edit: If you want you can board out a Mox instead of a Brainstorm.
Ok.
A stupid question : what exactly led you to make these changes to the previous list? The necessity to get a more solid setup against blue decks , which are now dominaing Legacy? Or you just couldn't stand some of the deck's inconsistency issues?
Ah, also your new list is missing a Wish-answer for Counterbalance. I'd suggest looking back to the ol' friend Cleanfall, which is as good as Vindicate to that purpose, but more easy to be cast.
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I just wanted more consistency, Cabal Ritual was a wasted maindeck slot. I do play a wishable answer - Vindicate. Look at the opening post.
There's no Vindicate in this list, but the Rebuild seems quite strange. Is there a typo or in place of the 3rd Spree?
I like this SB, even if it's quite different from mine. At the moment I'm playing with:
Usual wishboard stuff +
-2 more ETWs (3 total) to side in against counterbalance-stifleless decks. They might be getting worse lately due to the rise of maelstrom pulse.
-2 more shattering spree (3 total).
-1 Vindicate
-2 Pyroblast against counterbalance
-2 Xantid Swarm to side in against counter decks without CB. It's also good in the mirror matches
-0 Duresses, I'm playing the set MD.
It's worth noting that I'm playing zero Mystical-able bounce both MD and SB. I might find a single slot for bounce to side in. Should I take Wipe Away, E.Truth or Chain of Vapor?
I'm also playing with 3 Mysticals, but cut the single Tendrils (!!!) for it: people is calling Tendrils with (rare) Meddling Magi, and doesn't seem to affect the Aggro match at all.
The single Tendrils is often clunky when you draw it, and with Mystical I get more combo action and better AN flips instead.
I switched 1 Orchard and 1 IT for 2 Seas and I can feel the difference. Having lands that can be used in the middle game is golden.
I'm still not sure about the SB. What are you guys suggesting me? I like some ETWs, but don't know if they're still good paired with Swarms (they both die to EE and such). Should I just play more blasts instead?
More than some hand analysis, I'd like some report with your reasoning behind your game plays. An example: my wish almost never get countered (unless I broke LEDs obviously). Am I playing it wrong? What are your most wished targets in various matchups?
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
My bad, sorry. That sideboard is only 14, 15th card is Vindicate. RRR was sometimes hard against Chalice based decks, I just wanted a non-RRR based artifact removal. With 3 Sea it just opens options a bit.
I'm not sure entirely what you mean here. Are some of those dashes supposed to be pluses? Empty the Warrens I try not to use too often, it's just easily answered and the risk/reward sometimes isn't worth it. I used to play 2x Xantid in the sideboard recently, but I'm already at too many cards to board in against blue. Pyroblast just seems more important to me being able to deal with counterbalance.
It really depends on what you're looking for. I've used them all recently, I think E.Truth is more effective as a sideboard card, but maindeck Chain of Vapor is more useful. Wipeaway is obviously better if you're looking for an answer to counterbalance.
I'm not worried about people naming Tendrils, I'd be more worried about Burning Wish, especially with no maindeck bounce.
I wish for Duress a lot. I use Wish for bait and if they don't bite, I get Duress. I also used Returns a ton this past weekend, in 5 rounds I cast it probably 8-10 times.
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