Rock is all about slowly building up card advantage though. You don't want a million one-for-one effects (especially not, as all of your 16 Vindicates are, at three mana). Some obviously are necessary; you really want something like StP or Wretched Banquet to kill Lackey, because having no answer to Lackey is like trying to play baseball with no outfield.
You really want to maximize things like Deed though, or (less obviously) like the Finks/Hierarch slot. Finks can be a four- or five-for-one, played correctly; he takes down at least one blocker, if not two (against goblins or something), and he puts your life total another Fireblast higher. Even if they're not playing burn, that's still two turns of Mongoose/Factory beats. Hierarch likewise boosts your life total, and there are few enough four-power dudes in the format that he'll eat a few goblins/Geese or some removal spell (and, since he sacrifices for something, Hierarch can dodge StP and be re-used via Stronghold or Genesis). Little things like that add up over the course of a game.
On that note, has anyone tried Gerrard's Verdict? Stupid good against storm, for instance, pretty good against a lot of other things. If you're running StP and Hierarch anyway, it's worth a try. I usually stick with Duress and Thoughtseize for the sake of my mana curve, but there are a number of times when that's just fallen short.
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
How is having another means of breaking Goyf stalls and destroying Counterbalances a bad thing?
Hence why I am implementing Glittering Wish: I can decide if i need to play the aggro role or the control role ala deciding if I want to grab Deed or not. There are enough multi-color cards to make Glittering Wish worth getting.
Just popped your list open and had a few questions.
--Your list calls for seven Pernicious Deeds. I love Deed as much as anyone does, but that seems a little excessive. Plus I would shit my pants and walk home if you found anyone willing to play against that.
--Why the Scarab? You're already running Stronghold, so you don't need the recursion, and that can't be your best card-drawing mechanism.
--I have never wanted Unearth in a constructed deck. Is it really better than....anything else? Unearth is awful in the early game, because it requires a creature to be in the yard, and there are better options (Stronghold, Genesis, even Recurring Nightmare) in the late game. That's a good spot for Smother, or a few Shriekmaws and one or two Life from the Loam (which would let you put a Worm Harvest in the board to wish for).
--In what situation is it better to tutor for Gaddock Teeg? In the matchups I can see him being good it, you want to drop him turn two all the time.
--You only have one Savannah and one Scrubland. Is that a good idea given the prevalence of Wasteland and the amount of white in your deck? Likewise, for the kind of curve you're rolling, nine fetchlands vs. only fourteen lands that make mana seems like an awkward ratio. (You could use a couple Wastelands or a Dust Bowl yourself.)
I like Glittering Wish, I do. Just some stuff for ya to chew on.
You might also think about Living Wish, your deck seems to lend itself better to that. That gets you Kataki, Shriekmaw/Bone Shredder, Rootrunner (hilarious v. Landstill with Stronghold), Harmonic Sliver, another Stronghold....in your place and with your idea, I might go that route instead. I haven't played that in a year or so (which means it would be largely conjecture, I couldn't offer any sort of primer) or I'd start a thread for it.
My current list in Essential Magic is out of date. I need to update it.
My current playlist doesn't have Deeds main deck, so I obtain them from my wishes. It runs more discard and spot-removal.
Has anyone tried out Lord of Extinction?
Here's a pile that has surprised our group a few times. LoE gets stupid really fast.
// Lands
3 [U] Scrubland
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [P3] Plains (3)
1 [BD] Forest (1)
1 [9E] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [U] Savannah
3 [U] Bayou
// Creatures
4 [ARB] Lord of Extinction
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
// Spells
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
If you can pay the 5cc, which isn't all that difficult in TheRock, you'll have a serious fatty.
peace,
4eak
I play lord in my train wreck variant which is far more controlling. it uses beseech the queen as silverbullets approach and the lord is one of them (together with staff/haunting echoes, drain life etc)
My first reaction is that I don't want to run any other creatures that make graveyard hate worthwhile to board in against me. I don't have the Hymns and run more creatures than this, but only the Goyfs and 2x Eternal Witness are graveyard reliant at all.
I run 2x Volrath's Strongholds as well, so often times I get some pretty broken graveyard interactions, but usually not enough for people to bring in hate for it. Lord would definitely swing in Relics for anyone running them, and that's sad times for a lot more than him.
It does seem worth experimenting with though. I'll have to do some playtesting to see if he works out to be more big and broken than Spiritmonger in the 5 mana slot.
They're not gonna catch us. We're on a mission from God.
A friend of mine plays this list, and does rather well with it. Any suggestions for him...
19 Lands (Lots of Fetches)
1 Tomb of Urami
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Mealstrom Pulse
4 Armageddon
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Terravore
4 Lord of Extinction
Once again, he does great with his list. But do you have any suggestions for him? He did try out Tarmogoyf but consistently found them smaller than his other threats.
He accelerates really fast, has a lot of ways to answer his opponents threats and disrupt them, then lays down a fatty and Geddons for the win. Or sometimes he fetches a Tomb of Urami with KotR and beats down with both for the win.
I've been using Lord of Extinction to much success. What's great is he gets so big so quickly once he hits the table, since you're blowing crap up anyway. If he does get removed (usually via Swords), you get to gain a nice 10+ life (my record is 34)
@ Incinerator
I hear ya. Although, if you run Volrath's and Witness alongside Goyfs, any decent opponent will be siding Relic's in immediately. Like Goyf and Tombstalker, this guy hits so hard it might just be worth the risk.My first reaction is that I don't want to run any other creatures that make graveyard hate worthwhile to board in against me.
Head and shoulders better than Spiritmonger, especially in heavy control builds. In fact, because he isn't picky about card types like Goyf, you'll find LoE a much better topdeck and a better card in the face of hate. Although, he dies to a full relic activation, it is also easier to build up his P/T midgame than it is for Goyf.It does seem worth experimenting with though. I'll have to do some playtesting to see if he works out to be more big and broken than Spiritmonger in the 5 mana slot.
@ Clark Kant
That is an interesting build, no doubt. Ravages of War was my first thought, but at second glance, I think Geddon isn't worth losing Deed. I'm not convinced losing Deed is worth the aggro power you get from Vore.A friend of mine plays this list, and does rather well with it. Any suggestions for him...
@sdematt
Hehe, nice record. Surprisingly, the lifegain from opposing swords has swung several games for us in testing. They either die in 1-2 turns from this card, or when they answer it with Swords, you get a serious amount of life buffer. Not exactly win-win, but unlike Stifle-Nought 2 for 1's, an StP on this card can benefit you. Admittedly, that sounds odd, but we've had games where that mattered.If he does get removed (usually via Swords), you get to gain a nice 10+ life (my record is 34)
peace,
4eak
4eak, I'd be interested in seeing your list/sharing mine with you if you're interested, as I see we're probably working towards the same goal.
I'd also have to agree with the fact that a Swords on Lord won me the game; usually, in a dead-heat, I lay him down to put the pressure on, in hopes that he gets Swords so I get the buffer. Then, all you have to do (since by this time you've got the manabase set up) is enter into top-deck mode, which is usually better for you (I mean, if they draw Phage, and have Anger in the yard, then no, but when does THAt happen?)
-Matt
He can get huge, but so can Spiritmonger. Monger also won't die to random chump blockers, can avoid Protection from "X" color effects, and doesn't rely on the graveyard. If LoE had trample you'd have a better case, but he doesn't.
Head and shoulders better than Spiritmonger, especially in heavy control builds. In fact, because he isn't picky about card types like Goyf, you'll find LoE a much better topdeck and a better card in the face of hate. Although, he dies to a full relic activation, it is also easier to build up his P/T midgame than it is for Goyf.
Just a quick question: how does this deck handle counter/top? Land destruction / moon effects? Combo decks?
I guess it depends on the build, but in general:
Thoughtseize/Duress/Therapy can answer these preemptively
Deed/Vindicate/Pulse for CB
BoP/STE, possibly LftL, and plenty of basics for Moons/LD
Eternal Witness in case stuff gets countered
Also, most of the deck operates at a curve higher than what CB/Top can usually handle (3cc+)
Combo is obviously a little harder, but nutty draws with BoP/Seize/Therapy aren't too uncommon
There are also plenty of options in B and W against combo in the board (Teeg, Canonist, Extirpate, Crypt, Chant, etc. depending on the flavor of combo)
In my experience, Belcher and the Tendrils decks are big problems. Dredge isn't so bad if you just use STE or Extirpate to get rid of Bridges. I used to have 11 slots on my board for combo, but it's dying down some so I just accept a lost against Tendrils in place of great matches against other stuff. Extirpate comes in and sometimes steals it.
Moon effects and Wastelands I usually can deal with by getting basics early games 2 and 3 with top, fetches and STE. Sinkhole and Vindicate LD are problematic, but if you get basics you make them play the LD spells rather than other stuff so sometimes you can recover. It's not too good.
Counter/Top I almost don't care about. Aim your first couple of removal spells at the CB and I almost never miss getting it. I side in Extirpate and Krosan Grip against them usually, and it works well. I haven't had any problems in matchups against counter/top mess in a long time except for one odd stasis deck. I still won the match, but I didn't see the lock coming so I walked right into it.
They're not gonna catch us. We're on a mission from God.
I'm thinking about using a mana accelerator, but I can't decide between BoP or STE.
Which is better for Rock decks?
Hmm, again depends on the rest of your build.
I'm a big fan of STE. Permanent mana acceleration into basics is great in today's meta. Plus he chumps like a champ, and is randomly good against Ichorid. He also beats down on Control players without having to worry about removal.
BoP is really only needed turn1, and after that kind of sucks, especially if you're running Deed. STE is almost always welcome, and if you run plenty of 1-drops, it's not a problem that he's a turn slower. Good 1cc include Thoughtseize, Duress, and SDT (so underestimated. Especially good alongside Bob).
I'd say the only way BoP could potentially be better is when you play Seize, Therapy, and Witness MB.
I'm in agreement with STE being really good. In addition to getting basics and chumping any number of things, it's an extra shuffle effect for Top and at least theoretically a potential wincon. Granted, 1/1's don't get it done very often, but 0/1's never do.
Plus, STE helps get around Chalice at one. Not that it's a huge problem with Vindicate and Deed, but you can accelerate into those faster with him.
They're not gonna catch us. We're on a mission from God.
The only problem I see with STE is Cabal Therapy.
Well, here is the current decklist I am tinkering with.
Wish Rock
Land:
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
Spells:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
3 Path to Exile
3 Glittering Wish
Creatures:
4 Tarmogofy
3 Eternal Witness
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Birds of Paradise
Sideboard:
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Putrefy
1 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Behemoth Sledge
1 Loxodon Hierach
1 Spiritmonger
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Krosan Grip
Couple notes:
- Ignore the mana base: these are all cards from my current card pool.
- This deck utilizes wishes for late game power and/or flexible answers. I've tested with 4, but it seemed to many, so I cut the number down to 3.
- Currently testing BoP and PtE.
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