[Deck] Zoo

[Berzerked]

Sure, but if he dies by Swords, that shock got mitigated and I just 2:1 the opponent. Confident is already ridiculous in a deck that basically curves out at 2, and the fact that Zoo/Burn style decks tend to run out of steam pretty quickly is even more of a reason for his inclusion.
I might be biased because I run Confidant and Goyf in almost any deck able to support both, but they are possibly the two best stand-alone creatures in Legacy, and in more cases than not, your opponent doesn't have enough removal to keep both from getting out of control, especially with everything else he has to worry about this deck throwing at him.
I'm also part of the camp of players that tends to fear a resolved Confidant much more than Goyf, and with Goyf being one of the more feared creatures in this deck (I'd say turn 1 Nacatl is possibly a little scarier), why not add a more feared one, especially when it's going to draw you into business?
Crappier manabase? Sure, but again, this deck curves out at 2 and can easily operate on 1-2 lands for at least a while, and with 8-10 fetches, finding the right colors tends not to be too much of a problem.

[Guevera59]

I don't think that Bob is necessary because, in my experiences with the deck, the deck doesn't crap out. It only plays 20-21 lands, allowing the deck to almost always topdeck threats. The black splash is not worth Bob. Wasteland can be devastating and being able to get that GW for Pridemage/Watchwolf is more important than getting the black mana for Bob.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I don't think that Bob is necessary because, in my experiences with the deck, the deck doesn't crap out. It only plays 20-21 lands, allowing the deck to almost always topdeck threats. The black splash is not worth Bob. Wasteland can be devastating and being able to get that GW for Pridemage/Watchwolf is more important than getting the black mana for Bob.

I'm not very good with words, but i agree what Guevera has to say.

@: Berzerked: And as a matter of fact, in all my play time in Zoo, you never have dead topdecks in the mid to late game. Sometimes ya get mana flooded and it happens, but that's just with every deck. Zoo has the uncanny ability to be a midrange deck as well as an aggro deck. Bob just isn't worth it. He doesn't beat or burn. I know that's the nomad's way of saying it, but it makes sense.

[joey223]

hello zoo thread!

@umbowta:yea i would cut 1 lavamancer and add 1 PTE or burn piece.i have not tested the canopy but i am intrigued by it.
and is it just me or do you feel we are running too many lands? every game i have had an abundance of mana.cant help but think of what to do with it besides the obvious.(beat and burn )
also can we or should we try to squeeze wasteland in the deck, a la brian six?
i am thinking it would buy a couple of turns.and i really like wasteland

and i just took 4th at my weekly tourney with this list.

4 kird ape
4 thoctar
4 pridemage
4 wildcat
3 lavamancer
(yes there is no goyf in the list)

4 bolt
4 helix
4 chain
4 STP
3 null rod

2 sylvan library

3 taiga
3 savannah
3 plateau
4 mire
3 foothills
1 heath
1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains


now i know speaking of other than RWG zoo lists is frowned upon here but i think bob would belong in another 3 color zoo list.maybe a BRG zoo list or maybe a BGW or even a BWU zoo list. and as usual take the best of those colors and run with it. also if those zoo lists exist i would love to look at them.
please point us in the direction of those lists if you know where they are.

[from Cairo]

now i know speaking of other than RWG zoo lists is frowned upon here but i think bob would belong in another 3 color zoo list.maybe a BRG zoo list or maybe a BGW or even a BWU zoo list. and as usual take the best of those colors and run with it. also if those zoo lists exist i would love to look at them.
please point us in the direction of those lists if you know where they are.

No W/R for Nacatl = Frowntown.

But on the whole Dark Confidant thing, I feel like the card fits with Zoo's overall game plan fine, yea it's more fragile than alot of the guys, but beating for 2 while drawing into cards is fine. And even when he's too small to swing into opposing blockers, he's generally progressing one's game plan as much/more than Isamaru or Gaddock Teeg or something. That is to say, that other fragile 2 power guys are being considered/played, and once he gets outclassed he still does plenty. If they ever printed something similar in R, G, or W (or Timeshift him), I think the resulting card would definitely be run.

That said, I don't think bastardizing the mana base is worth it. Yes the deck curves out at 2, but it also has a bunch of cards that require you to keep land types on board and a fair number of cards with two mana type costs. Even in the 3c versions, Wastelands + another LD spell can be a headache depending on one's hand, like knocking out one's Plateau if the Zoo's opening hand was Forest, Fetch, Nacatl; or being cut off from White with hands that have Pridemages and Helixes (Heli ?). I think 5c can do fine at assembling their colors quickly/~consistently when unopposed or in the face of Wastelands, but if facing more mana disruption, I think the risk is too great for the reward.

[Arctic_Slicer]

I think the big point about aether vial is that you can cheat your color requirements while having a backup plan when faced against land destruction, Blood Moon, Trinisphere, Counterbalance, etc. It's not as important in 3 color versions but if you are running 4 or 5 colors then it's necessary to keep you from being color screwed. In any event if you aren't running it in the maindeck you should at least consider it for the sideboard.

[alderon666]

I was read the topic and I saw a discussion about Burning-Tree Shaman and it looks really good on paper. Surely a metagame call as it sucks against burn and other "bad" decks, but it just hates the crap out of "good" decks. I think it at least deserved a mention on the OP.

With countertop running rampart I'd like to know why it isn't widely used? Anyone tested it?

[hungryLIKEALION]

Aether Vial is great in zoo, I've actually worked in back into my list now. I forgot how good it was in the time I haven't been playing with it, especially now that we have pridemage and such. great stuff.

I love burning tree shaman and think he's a fine choice for the deck, he's just not quite as big as some of the other 3drop choices, and doesn't combine well with vial. Still, he's great against the countertop decks, since they will quickly find their life going to 0 every game.

[4eak]

@ Berzerked

I gotta say, I'm not a huge fan of Lavamancer in Zoo; I think he should stay in Goyf Sligh. We have more permanent damage sources (ie. creatures), and tend not to put as many cards into the graveyard in as little a time as Goyf Sligh.

Be honest here: these two decks bleed into each other. If you don't use some arbitrary color requirements, then they are the same deck. Little men + Burn and perhaps a handful of utility cards. Burn-based Fish.

Lavamancer only fits in some Zoo builds. As you said, some versions of the deck don't get cards into the GY as effectively as others. This should certainly be taken into consideration. In conjunction with other creatures which are good at generating card advantage or have a sacrifice ability, Lavamancer can be a very strong choice in the right build.

Anyway, if you're already playing 4 color, I don't see a reason not to include a single Volcanic Island and Tropical Island.

My only concern was improving the stability of the mana base. But, this definitely is a viable option (especially with Vial in the deck).

With the black splash what do you guys think of Tidehollow Sculler

I think the card is great, but I don't think it is as good as the other slots. The double color sometimes hurts. It can buy time in the combo match (which needs the help).

@ from Cairo

I really don't like the idea of Vial in this deck. In an opening 7 it's an alright card, but it's about as bad as drawing lands in the mid game. I guess with Confidant's boost to card drawing (in the 5c Versions) the deck is less dependent on good top decks, but still having essentially 24-25 mana sources seems not great

If you run 17+ creatures, and you aren't dredging them, you have to test Vial. Period. The card has proven itself over and over.

If you go 4-5 color, then Vial plays an even stronger role. It is so much more than just a mana source. Your mileage will vary though. 3 Color versions aren't trying to maximize CA or utility, and the go-for-the-throat has less need for Vial (although Vial still does some very important things in this case). Any version of the deck that slows the pace down just slighty, in favor of a card like Confidant, will appreciate Vial much more.

I'd rather run something that's more disruptive, while being a threat.

I consider Vial to be a threat. There are only a handful of first turn plays in Legacy which always deserves my FoW. Aether Vial is one of those threats. If an opposing control or tempo deck doesn't answer Vial, then they've lost a great deal of interactive opportunity, and often lose the match outright because of the card.

Aether Vial is a dangerous card. It let's you spend your mana elsewhere (like burn or activated abilities), smoothes mana curves, and it helps you avoid interaction. Aether Vial is all too often the backbone of any creature-based aggro deck in Legacy.

@ Loxodon Baileyarch

I really don't like Dark Confidant in the deck at all. We all know how good he is, but in more cases than none he shocks you, draws a card to replace drawing him, and die. I just don't think he is necessary.

The card is straight CA (and it averages to be less than shock, more like a lava dart). Berzerked is right.

You may not find the card necessary (meaning you can still win games without him), but there are so many games that you'll win off the back of just him. He is a must-answer card in this format, and his role is powerful and appropriate in this low cc curve deck.

You don't have to run the card, but I would be very slow to say 'I don't like him at all', as if he has no home in any version of the deck.





peace,
4eak

[Guevera59]

It's not as important in 3 color versions but if you are running 4 or 5 colors then it's necessary to keep you from being color screwed. In any event if you aren't running it in the maindeck you should at least consider it for the sideboard.

That's yet another reason why the 4c and 5c lists are inferior to the 3c lists. Needing to play Aether Vials to counteract the mana inconsistencies and fragility proves my point. I feel as if Vial is awful in Zoo. Instead of dropping a first turn Vial, I wanna drop a Nacatl, a Lavamancer, a Hound, or a Kird Ape. Second turn, I'd rather drop a Goyf, a Watchwolf, a Pridemage. Third turn, a Thoctar, or multiple threats, and, if i do drop a Vial, it loses its utility this late in the game. What would you cut? The point of Zoo is its incredible threat density coupled with effective burn. Vial cuts this threat density down, leading us down a path to poor late game topdecks, which is where we thrive. You mentioned boarding them; what the hell would you board them in against? Vexing Shusher just seems better. If you board them in against land destruction, then you should just play the more consistent 3c Zoo which is much less susceptible to mana pressure.

[Berzerked]

That's yet another reason why the 4c and 5c lists are inferior to the 3c lists. Needing to play Aether Vials to counteract the mana inconsistencies and fragility proves my point.

...of the 69 Zoo decks represented on deckcheck, 42% are 4-5c, with only 13% of those decks playing Vial.

How exactly is your point proven?

[Guevera59]

Sorry if I was unclear. The need for 4c and 5c decks to play Aether Vial proves that they are inconsistent in terms of their mana base. On the other hand, this use of Aether Vial really doesn't fix the deck because, even though it helps the mana base, it takes away from the intense threat density. I would rather play a RGW Zoo list that can maintain this threat density while being able to reliably cast these threats.

I was responding to someone that stated that Aether Vial would be good in 4c-5c lists because it would help reliably cast its threats. I am saying that playing Aether Vial destroys the idea of Zoo: to drop a beater every turn, clearing the way with burn/PtE/StoP. As I said in my last post, I would rather play creatures than waste a turn playing Vial.

Volatile mana base + Aether Vial + less threats < Stable mana base + more threats

[from Cairo]

I'd rather run something that's more disruptive, while being a threat.

I consider Vial to be a threat. There are only a handful of first turn plays in Legacy which always deserves my FoW. Aether Vial is one of those threats. If an opposing control or tempo deck doesn't answer Vial, then they've lost a great deal of interactive opportunity, and often lose the match outright because of the card.

Aether Vial is a dangerous card. It let's you spend your mana elsewhere (like burn or activated abilities), smoothes mana curves, and it helps you avoid interaction. Aether Vial is all too often the backbone of any creature-based aggro deck in Legacy.

I consider it a threat as well, I don't consider it as disruptive as the cards I go on to mention. They contribute to helping creatures resolve, and helping to keep them protected from sweepers, which I consider to be the two major threats that Aether Vial poses. While doing this they either shut off additional cards beyond counter magic, a bunch of examples were mentioned, and additionally in Gaddock Teeg's case he swings for damage while being disruptive.

Aether Vial is a dangerous card. It let's you spend your mana elsewhere (like burn or activated abilities), smoothes mana curves, and it helps you avoid interaction. Aether Vial is all too often the backbone of any creature-based aggro deck in Legacy.

The deck curves out at 2, so there isn't much need for smoothing the curve. It helps in some cases when you're color screwed, but in the 3 color versions that's pretty rare. After the first 3-4 turns there isn't much to be spending mana on so having freed up mana doesn't net you much, other than I suppose posing the threat of more removal in hand. Once the deck hits 3 land drops it's going to be able to play 2 spells a turn though which is as much as it needs to keep pressure up.

I totally agree Vial can be helpful in certain agro decks, like if there is a legitimate mana curve to the deck than Vial is going help immensely (see Goblins) or if there is something inherently synergistic in the decks' shell already (see Merfolk's Standstill or Wizards' Patron Wizard).

[umbowta]

hello zoo thread!

@umbowta:yea i would cut 1 lavamancer and add 1 PTE or burn piece.i have not tested the canopy but i am intrigued by it.
and is it just me or do you feel we are running too many lands? every game i have had an abundance of mana.cant help but think of what to do with it besides the obvious.(beat and burn )
also can we or should we try to squeeze wasteland in the deck, a la brian six?
i am thinking it would buy a couple of turns.and i really like wasteland

and i just took 4th at my weekly tourney with this list.

4 kird ape
4 thoctar
4 pridemage
4 wildcat
3 lavamancer
(yes there is no goyf in the list)

4 bolt
4 helix
4 chain
4 STP
3 null rod

2 sylvan library

3 taiga
3 savannah
3 plateau
4 mire
3 foothills
1 heath
1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains


now i know speaking of other than RWG zoo lists is frowned upon here but i think bob would belong in another 3 color zoo list.maybe a BRG zoo list or maybe a BGW or even a BWU zoo list. and as usual take the best of those colors and run with it. also if those zoo lists exist i would love to look at them.
please point us in the direction of those lists if you know where they are.

Congrats on the finish for sure, especially with such a weird list. I'm wondering, do you not own goyfs or what? Also, the fetchlands are a little off. You really want 4 heaths and 4 foothills. Lastly, as long as you're curving out at 3 you need to be running 20 or 21 so you can somewhat consistently make your turn three land drop on the play. On the draw you can cut that down to 18-19 if you feel comfortable doing so; not a good plan versus anyone packing land destruction.

[Berzerked]

Sorry if I was unclear. The need for 4c and 5c decks to play Aether Vial proves that they are inconsistent in terms of their mana base. On the other hand, this use of Aether Vial really doesn't fix the deck because, even though it helps the mana base, it takes away from the intense threat density. I would rather play a RGW Zoo list that can maintain this threat density while being able to reliably cast these threats.

You weren't unclear, but apparently I was.

I am in no way backing up the inclusion of Vial, but you seem to think that that 4-5c Zoo NEEDS Vial to shore up its poor manabase, and whether including Vial or not, that 4-5c lists are inferior. I proved this thought process wrong by giving you statistics that say this:

1 - 42% of the Zoo lists represented on deckcheck are 4-5c. That's almost half. How you can call a splash that makes up about half of the archtypes successful lists "inferior", I do not know. In fact, I'd go as far as to say if the 4-5c manabase wasn't so insanely expensive and unnecessary (most players don't have multiples of every dual land, plus 8-10 on-color fetches), it might be more represented.

2 - Only 13% of 4-5c Zoo plays Vial. In case you still don't understand, that means that 87% of 4-5c lists DO NOT play Vial, yet they still made their Top8. Again, how are you proving that either a) 4-5c lists are inconsistent in any way, or b) that 4-5c lists NEED Vial?

Now, whether these statistics would translate directly to your meta, or any modern meta for that matter, is beside the point. My point is you can't state your opinion and throw in words like "prove" when it is clear that you or any source you have cited (or, rather, not cited), have not proved anything.

That being said, I would tend to agree that Vial does not belong in any splash of Zoo (and these same statistics say the same, though I have not personally tested it, and I have a feeling nor have you).

[4eak]

It doesn't sound like many of you have even tested Aether Vial. What a shame. This isn't just some random tech suggestion. The card is foundational to so many aggro strategies in the format. You simply have to test the card before dismissing it.

I'm not saying it is a 'must' play, as the deck can win a tournament with or without the card, but I would be very slow to dismiss it as inviable.


@ from Cairo

I consider it a threat as well, I don't consider it as disruptive as the cards I go on to mention.

Your examples showed there are cards that are better at disrupting any one particular strategy moreso than others. However, I think Vial includes a multitude of strengths which sum to be more than just a specialized answer like Null rod or Teeg. The sum of Vial's strengths are what validate the card.

They contribute to helping creatures resolve, and helping to keep them protected from sweepers, which I consider to be the two major threats that Aether Vial poses.

I think you've undervalued the first and missed some other important contributions of Vial.

Zoo is fast enough that the only reliably faster deck with which it must force interaction is combo. For all other decks, Zoo is attempting to avoid interaction. It does this in large part by playing threats early and burning to the head. With that said, the rest of the format (minus combo) is looking to interact with Zoo if they hope to win. The common, effective interactions against Zoo usually include some combination of: permission, sustainable blocking/sweeping CA, and mana disruption (CotV, 3Sphere, Wasteland, Stifle, Daze).

Aether Vial enables your most important threats to bypass all of those interactions. Vial is all about what Zoo is trying to do: avoid interaction. Vial is a huge disruption piece against the most common forms of interaction. It is a proactive answer to the various control pieces which can be levied against this deck.

As for permission, Vial is one of the few cards in the format that keeps blue in check. This isn't some small concern. A large portion of the decks you'll face will lose if they cannot answer an active Vial. Even the ubiquitous CB/Top lock becomes almost meaningless as you can push through your best cards and utility through a Vial.

Vial isn't just about avoiding board control, it is also about winning combat wars (through instant vials), and pushing through vital pieces like Qasali at instant speed. Aether Vial gives you an information advantage.

Lastly, and probably most importantly, Vial gives the deck resilience to mana denial strategies. Vial proactively disrupts other tempo decks, making a Chalice, 3Sphere, Stifle or Wasteland much less effective against our deck. Vial stops them from timewalking you, and it answers many of the tools which are used to stabilize against Zoo.

Vial does not slow the deck down by much at all (in many cases it actually accelerates your deck). You still play lots of burn and lots of little men. Vial complements those cards, curbing the weaknesses of the deck, while barely changing the decks goldfish kill.

@ Guevera59

Volatile mana base + Aether Vial + less threats < Stable mana base + more threats

If all threats were equal, then I could agree. The fact is that Vial is about pushing through only the best threats available. It is a different strategy. But, it has a long, long track record.

You say threat density. I say Vial is about threat intensity. You are replacing your poorest spells with a card that directly strengthens many of your strongest spells. There is much to be gained, and very little to be lost. It is quite likely that Vial will win many more matches than what it replaced.




peace,
4eak

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Haha i don't log on for a day and the thread turns into Aether Vial argumentdotthread.

I'm personally against. I suppose if i was playing in a random metagame like a GP, i could MAYBE see it being used. It slows the deck down and is a dead topdeck, while you could be drawing better utility(Teeg, even Cannonist). I want to go, turn one Nacatl every game(exceptions of course), not turn one Aether Vial. But hey, i guess it comes down to whether or not you wanna make your deck slower? Or more well balanced??? Question mark?

Anywho, i just can't stand any other build other than RGW. I've played them in Legacy and Extended and it's just like, hey please mana denial me, i won't even play basics. Too risky. Don't really know why anyone would wanna play anything other than RGW Zoo when it comes to be a better deck.

[Berzerked]

Oh, my bad, you can't stand the black splash so all discussions off. And no one mention Vial anymore. We have to devote the next two pages to arguing about Cursed Scroll and Null Rod.
I'll stop, I should at least be happy you provided some sort of fluff other than just "Argh you're bastardizing my thread!"

P.S. If I misread your tone, I apologize, but I'm tired of internet mtg elitists. This board is about innovation, and innovation is brought about by discussion. Yes, even discussion of suboptimal choices.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I've just started testing this deck with vial again, and I'm very pleased with it. You may not hit your first turn threat, but you can drop two threats a turn for the next few turns, which results in about the same clock. Also, the ability to drop instant-speed blockers or EOT creatures for pseudo-haste is incredible in almost every matchup. You really do have to test it, because it's honestly awesome. I know it may not seem like it's the best card for the straight up beatdown deck, but it just lets you win so many games you would otherwise have hardly any stake in. I just beat a Pox player for no other reason that that I was able to deploy my threats without mana. If I had to rely on my lands, I never would have come close to winning that game.

Also, blue decks ABSOLUTELY HAVE to FoW it. If that's one less FoW for my goyfs, I'm absolutely fine with that.

Here's the list I'm currently trying... It's a little bit out there, but I think it's interesting.

2 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Wasteland
-24 Land-

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Kird Ape
2 Knight of the Reliquary
-21 Creatures-

4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Aether Vial
3 Fireblast
-15 Spells-

SB:
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Jitte
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 K-Grip
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Volcanic Fallout

The land count is high, but wasteland is testing pretty well for me so far. Turn 1 vial followed by wastelands is a great way to begin a game, as you can deploy your threats and throw some lightning bolts around while keeping them completely off balance. The high land count also allows me to run Knight of the Reliquary with no trouble at all.

Unfortunately, the late-game topdecking is a little weaker, but the game plan and disruption seems very useful. I haven't actually drawn a fireblast yet in my testing (and it's been like 10+ games) but I'm gonna keep testing it, as it seems the extra reach and speed would be great. No STP in this version, which I'm now convinced is better than PtE, because I wanted to have more reach and try to race dreadnoughts or other goyfs I guess. Pridemage can always take care of naught too, so the only creature I really care that much about then is Tombstalker. Annoying, but I can deal with him by racing or swarming or a attack+burn.

And I am definitely sure STP is better than PTE almost all the time now. I find myself constantly questioning whether or not to cast PTE, something I never did with STP. With STP you just cast it and kept on fighting. PTE I feel like I'm giving my opponent free wins by accelerating them into the big cards that kill me.

Edit-I think the thing vial-haters don't get is that vial doesn't slow the deck down a considerable margin, and gives you a much better way to evade disruption as well as allowing much better tricks and allows the better player to expand his playskill advantage.

[AngryTroll]

Vial doesn't really slow you down.

Turn one Vial versus turn one Necatl leaves you three points of damage behind on turn two and three. You then catch up on turn four by swinging with the extra two drop you made on turn three, of burning blockers out of the way while still dropping a dude. There are very few situations where this will be relevant-say, against ANTendrils

You do have one fewer creature/burn spell/land in hand. If you get to run Bob, if he draws you a single card, you break even and have a tempo advantage. If you cut a land for one of the Vials 1/4 of the time you topdeck them, they aren't a worse topdeck than the land would have been.

It's probably unwise to dismiss Vial out of hand.