I guess a fair way to describe Loxodon's attitude is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". He has had marginal success with his version and at the moment, he is perfectly happy with it.
I have come to understand that Vial is definitely worth testing. Also, has anyone considered Serra Avenger with the addition of Vial? Playing a 2-of Angel could allow for his drawback to be less relevant and one can Vial him in on turn 2. This deck has always needed some kind of evasion and if worst comes to worst, one can sit back with Pridemages and swing in with an exalted Serra. I don't think the WW cost is relevant because a) I generally fetch for Plateau/Savannah before Taiga and b) Vial cheats this cost.
Team Giancoli. Rocking the mediocrity since 2008.
You're not understanding what i'm saying. RGW just doesn't need Vial, it's that simple. RGW's manabase is very very good, and it hasn't shitted on me once. Sure you can flash dudes into play, but that's just cute is all that is. Sure you can make the argument that i can save mana for burn or activated abilities, but i just don't think it's worth it. The deck wins fine on it's own. Against Dragon Stompy, Stax, whatever prison deck.Originally Posted by Arctic_Slicer
I completely agree that, hey, Vial seems pretty good in 4c, 5c lists, but it just isn't necessary in straight up RGW.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Okay. This is my first crack at this deck so please alert me to any glaring weaknesses. If there are, I'm sorry. I'm a landstill player.
4 kird ape
4 wild nacatl
2 isamaru, hound of konda
4 tarmogoyf
4 quasali pridemage
3 watchwolf
3 wooly thoctar
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 lightning helix
4 fireblast
4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath
3 taiga
3 savannah
3 plateau
1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains
I know the four fireblasts seem poor with the manabase but I figure you want to make sure to see it around turn 4 and with seven mountains and eight fetches I see no reason not to be able to cast two in a game.
It's just that Fireblast isn't necessary at all, especially as a 4-of. Zoo doesn't need a finisher and going balls to the wall isn't Zoo's style. If Fireblast is countered, you are beyond fucked. I'd rather see you play some combination of PtE or StP in that slot.
Team Giancoli. Rocking the mediocrity since 2008.
Ah, okay. That leads me to more questions, which I want to preface with the fact that I've already read the entire thread.
1. Swords to plowshares screws your tempo, I get that. But doesn't path to exile do the same? Isn't that just one more blue source/top spin with counterbalance active that this deck just doesn't need? How do folks feel about more burn in that slot? Either rift bolt or incinerate I'm guessing, out of which I would prefer incinerate.
2. What's the consensus this week on grim lavamancer? Seems good but does pridemage kind of take his spot as far as the goyf war winner? I still like him and this deck does fill the graveyard quickly, so what's people view on him now? He's also another out to bridge from below if you've no pridemage handy.
One of the reasons that Vial is so good in counterslivers is that all of the dudes cost 2, so there is only one number to st the Vial at. Slivers also have abilities, such as granting shroud, which are more relevent than being big when vialing in a dude.
Merfolk is another deck which uses vial. Like slivers the dudes have relevant abilities, like pump abilities from lords. Goblins gets similar utility out of vial.
Now I have not tested vial in zoo, but it would seem to me that zoo really wants to play a dude on turn 1 so that it can attack on turn 2, before the opponent can play a big dude like Goyf. The dudes in zoo follow a curve, so you would have to make choices about how many counters to leave on vial. Also, other than Pridemage RGW Zoo does not play any utility dudes or lords which would benefit your team by being played at instant speed.
1) I haven't found Path to Exile's citp tapped land to be that big of a tempo fuck. Vs. Goyfs, Tombstalkers, and Terravores and the like, I'd prefer they get a tapped Island/Forest, than 5+ life. I'm running 3.
2) Comparing my list to yours, I'm running Lavamancer in Isamaru's spot. I guess it probably means a few times when I'm going to be swinging for 1 less turn 2, but it also comes up a lot that I'd have an Ape or Nacatl I'd rather play turn 1 anyway. I'd rather have too many ways to win Goyf wars than not enough. It also sometimes just randomly gets there for the last 4ish pts, when ground is stalled, ala Cursed Scroll. I'm running 3 of him as well.
TPDMC
I've used STP since i picked the deck up, and i just changed to PTE recently since it cost me like 5 games in one night. It's just so much better. You hardly ever use it unless it's your turn and you wanna attack. And if it's a kill shot, then it worked even better.
@ 3duece: Yeah the only thing i would suggest cutting from your list is Fireblast. It's really not necessary at all. I like Incinerate actually. If Chain start fucking with me too bad, i might add Incinerate. It's instant speed and gets rid of Spectral Lynx, which is being boarded in against me alot lately.
@ from Cairo: Yeah Isamaru is probably the next thing to be cut from the deck, i just can't bring myself to run Lavamancer though. I might actually add another Jitte. It's just that damned good. I could go -2 Isamaru, +1 Jitte, +1 Watchwolf, or something of the like.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
The main thing is that you just need answers to larger creatures that burn can't beat. You should know how many goyfs/tombstalkers/dreadnaughts are around. The life is not a drawback as much when you wouldn't be able to swing your creatures through an opponent's creature to begin with.
That said, I would recommend path over exile for many of the reasons stated. It helps their mana, but largely it doesn't matter; you'll probably kill them a full turn faster without them getting life. I also am a fan of running a combination of both to have a total greater than 4 sword effects, though I know people really like burn a lot.
@Loxodon: I think that the issue people are having is that you seem to be completely unopen to ideas or even discussion for zoo. To me at least it seems as if you were here at the start of the thread and as such have assumed ownership of the thread. That is, almost everything you think about zoo is right. (Although most the time I feel that your posts have little actual argumentation in them besides you staying your opinion.) I don't want to turn this thread into flames, I apologize if I'm being a little blunt, and I don't question that you've played the deck. However, this is the impression that I've gotten from you thus far and I think many other people expressing frustration probably feel the same way.
@ Valtrix: I don't own this thread, i just post in it alot. I make valid points every step of the way. Sure i may be a dick at times, but i make points. Just because someone else is better with words doesn't mean their right, and i feel like that's most of what this whole website is. People just bicker back and forth and then they start using big words trying to make themselves look good to the e-vironment instead of going straight to the issue. You people say i put little thought into my posts, it's just because i get straight to the point. It something seems bad, i'm gonna say it. I always get the argument over whether or not it's tested. I don't have time to sit around all day just to test Aether Vial in RGW Zoo. Sure it might help me out in a few situations, but at the end of the day, i know 100% that the deck is better without it. You all make fine points, but hey, i agree, Aether Vial is a good card. I don't doubt what it does or what it has done for you, i just don't understand how you anyone could think it's better for the RGW lists. And i could care less if people get frustrated. This deck has been assembled with the best cards it could be assembled by. The deck has a collective card pool, and dipping outside of it doesn't make sense to me.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Oh, also another question. Mogg Fanatic? I really like him and I often find him a pain in the ass to play against. How come more people don't run him around here?
He doesn't deal enough damage over the long run is the reason why i don't run him. Everything in my build is 2/2 or bigger. Mogg Fanatic is good against Dredge, and i could see him being ran in a more burn heavy list to squeeze out the unblockable little points of your opponent's life. He reminds me of like a Bee Sting creature lol.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
This thread is extremely vague. It is important to remember that it's only a DTB because of this; the statistics that give 'Zoo' its winning percentages are not from one person's narrow list. Different types of Zoo are certainly viable, and we should all remember this when discussing what 'works' and what 'doesn't work'. That's just my 5 cents.
The opening post is also RGW too. I would assume people would read the opening thread before hopping into discussions. If they wanted to make this an, every color of Zoo thread, i think they would have. They did it with Tempo Thresh and Countertop.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Ok, so the current list I'm testing with much success is on post #396. I've been getting land flooded too often, so to start out with, I'm dropping a Savannah. That leaves me with the hard decision of what single spell to add. Here's what I've been torn over:
- 4th Pridemage. I'm not sure this is necessary with Trygon around.
- Doran. Semi-prohibitive cost, but nothing 10 fetches and 4 Vials can't handle. As a bonus he also makes Ape, Goyf, and Trygon hit harder.
- Krosan Grip. Not much explanation necessary here. Again, might not be necessary with Pridemage and Trygon.
- Jund Charm. Or any of the Charms for that matter, though I feel Jund would have the most to offer. 2 damage to my own Bob/Sculler isn't too hot, though.
- Planeswalker. In particular Sarkhan, either Ajani, Elspeth, or Garruk. Could be interesting.
- Figure of Destiny/Isamaru. Eh.
- StP/PtE. Eh.
- Teeg/Grunt. Eh.
- Anything else. I'm open to suggestions.
I'm leaning more towards Doran or Sarkhan (his + ability seems to be most relevant to Zoo's general gameplan, and his - and ultimate aren't too shabby either).
Be advised, I'm not asking whether you like/approve of/would play my current list. I'm just asking for any suggestions on this single card choice. Thanks!
Be more open seriously! Total joke btw.
And que deletion of post for not being relevant!
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
They changed the thread title for a reason...
Seriously, Zoo has been successful with a number of good versions. Your list shouldn't be set in stone and you should turn down every card that isn't in your list because you "don't like it".
So no suggestions?
If you'll look back a few pages, you'll notice i just changed my list a week ago. I also admitted a few pages back, that Aether Vial seemed like a fine choice for versions of this deck. I don't turn down every card that isn't in my list, and when i do i make points as to why i do. So seriously, it's ok.
@ berserked: I don't really know 5c lists as well as i do RGW. I wouldn't run a combination of Trygon and Pridemage though. Teeg is awesome maindeck or Sideboard whichever. I ran him main for a while. PTE, and you already know why. Planeswalkers cost 4 mana or more and you can't Vial them, and you might not hit 4 land every game, so no to them lol.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
About Trygon + Pridemage, people tell me not to do it all the time, but I consistently love the combo (second favorite only to Goyf + Confidant, so you see, I'm stuck playing 5c) and I'm almost always happy to see either one or both. Plus I like the fact that Trygon has evasion.
You know I didn't even consider that fact that you can't Vial Plansewalkers. I obviously know this, but I guess it slipped my mind with all my current testing with Noble Hierarch and Elspeth in NQGw. Vial =/= mana
Well, since you tried, I might as well post my RGW so you can get some action.
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Watchwolf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Woolly Thoctar
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Plateau
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
56 cards. I'm going to test Vial just so I can prove to myself, at least, that it isn't worth it in 3c.
Other than that, what would you suggest I test in those slots? 2/2 Jitte/Scroll? Are you still backing Scroll?
I'll try PtE, though I'm going to maintain the mentality that I won't like it. We'll see.
I agree that Isamaru is weak, and he'd be long gone if I thought there was anything better to replace him with. I have tested Lavamancer, and have not liked him at all.
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