[DTB] Vial Goblins

[ScatmanX]

So, I have a big tournament next week, and have no Idea about the meta.
I´m playng goblins (my only deck for real), but don’t know if MonoRed or Rb.
The deal is, I would play Rb, but I don’t have all the cards (lands) Do you guys think a list with 3 Weirdings, 3 Frogtosser, 1 Mad Auntie, could be supported by 4 Badland, 4 Bloodstained Mire and 1 Wooded Foothills? That’s only 9 sources, and in testing now, it is looking a little short.
The MonoR list, in the other hand, is 100% complete (with 3xStingscourer, 3xRelics and +1xPiledriver in place of those cards).

Also, my SB is like this:
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Pyroknesis
3xRed Elemental Blast
2x Pirostatic Pillar
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Pithing Needle
1x Goblin Tinkerer

The 3 other Relics are MD. I like REB too much, but guess that going to 2 isn´t all that bad. Could cut the random Needle, possibly fot the 4th Knesis. Don’t like going without Combo hate, so the 6 (9 if you count REB) devoted to it.

Last thing: do you guys think Goblin Pyromancer deserves a slot MD or SB? I really wanted to try him, but never really had the guts. Also, would the champ be the best time to try it?
Thanks in advanced for comments.

[true story]

I don't know how many lands you're running, but after playing 21 for a year or more, 23 is really a good number. If you're gonna play Rb I would suggest at least another Foothill and 1 basic swamp. Fetching that 1 Swamp can be huge against decks that play Wasteland.(Fuck off in advance to all the haters) I wouldn't run Pyromancer maindeck, maybe in the board for mirror match. If you're going play in a big tourney I wouldn't experiament(spelling?) just play cards you know work and try to win. As far as the board goes why run 1 Needle? What good is 1 really gonna do?

[ScatmanX]

both lists havs 23 lands. The deal is, I don't have more Foothills, and am not going to but them until past october.
The needle is really random. Jus because I coudn't find anything to put in instead.
I could, though, buy 2 or 3 Boartusk Liege, in place of 1 needle, 1 REB, and maybe tinker...

[true story]

I don't think not having additional fetches will hurt much. I only run 6, and 3 Badlands(don't own a 4th) and 1 swamp and I haven't had many problems at all. I'd prolly drop the Needle and run another Pillar.

[FoulQ]

Rather insignificant, but I'd run x1 tormod's crypt in sideboard over the last relic. You don't want 4 relics against tarmogoyf anyways. Tormod's will then get around loam playing chalice at 1, as well as ichorid playing needle/therapy. And in my opinion there aren't very many other popular decks that deserve sideboard graveyard hate (though md can be cool like you are playing).

I ran basic swamp for awhile in Rb. It's good sometimes, but sometimes it royally screwed me (this was a list without frogtosser). Also, basic swamp doesn't play very friendly with frogtosser. But if you are running 3 frogtosser 3 weirding it might be necessary, especially in an unknown meta.

Also IMO blasts are terrible in this deck and I'd remove them if I were you, but apparently you love them. Your choice.

To end, it sounds like you are more comfortable with the monored list at the moment. I'd play with whatever you feel more comfortable with.

[ScatmanX]

How would you play the Sb then?
I like REB´s because every top8 I see, there are like 16-24 FoWs in it, and it can nail a ponder/brainstorm/mystical tutor from TES/AdNauseam, that gives more chance agains't them. (I realise I have to miss my 1st drop T1, but if he combos 2nd, 3rd turn, having a Lackey on the Battlefield would'nt mean anything)
(talking to my friend that would lend me the Bloodstained Mire´s, he is probably lending then to someone else so, MonoR here we go!)

[true story]

I ran 3 REB in my Survival board at a Lotus tourney last week and they were always good. They are good against control decks and they were surprisingly good against Affinity, killing Master of Etherium and countering Thoughtcast. Pretty good against Merfolk as well. I wasn't playing Goblins, and I don't know what types of decks are popular around your neck of the woods but I don't think REB is a bad choice at all. Could you find something better? Maybe, but REB is solid. True story

[Mantis]

REB is an excellent choice, its strong against a ton of the best decks. Not only good against control but also against combo. I would even consider it against Ichorid as it hits Careful Study and Breakthrough and Narcomoeba in odd situations.

Anyway my guess is that you are most familair
with Mono R so I would play that. I think it pays off to know your deck inside and out. The alternative is a suboptimal list that you dont really know all that well. That said I do think Tacos list is very good right now. Your SB looks solid, I dont like Pillar and would play 4 Pyrokinesis..

[ScatmanX]

Thanks for the replies all.
Want to put a new topic in:
Do goblins have, or don't have, to play around Daze?
I was in a mach today, where I had 1 piledriver, and 1 warchief in play, along with 4 mountains, and 1 Siege-gang in hand.
My oponent had forced my vial, and had a Mongoose in play, along with 2 lands (1 tapped) and 1 counterbalance. He had 3 or 4 cards in hand I guess, and I had nothing else. Whats the best play? Wait for 5th land, to play it Daze-proof, or try your luck, risking having nothing else to do?

[Tacosnape]

Thanks for the replies all.
Want to put a new topic in:
Do goblins have, or don't have, to play around Daze?
I was in a mach today, where I had 1 piledriver, and 1 warchief in play, along with 4 mountains, and 1 Siege-gang in hand.
My oponent had forced my vial, and had a Mongoose in play, along with 2 lands (1 tapped) and 1 counterbalance. He had 3 or 4 cards in hand I guess, and I had nothing else. Whats the best play? Wait for 5th land, to play it Daze-proof, or try your luck, risking having nothing else to do?

I hate situational conversations because it always depends on every single factor in the game. Questions like this encourage people to make tunnel decisions and not to be analytical. Other information we need:

What was your opponent at?
What were you at?
How many cards did you have in your hand? Just the Siege-Gang?
What were your opponent's splash colors?
How long had your opponent been at 2 land (Could indicate he's holding a bunch of 3-drops and 4-drops)
Has he constantly been playing spells, or has his play been stagnant?
Did you resolve your Warchief with three lands, and how many cards has the opponent drawn since then?
What feeling did you get from the opponent's previous plays?

[Mantis]

Usually I don't play around Daze, for example if I can go for turn 1 Vial and my opponent has Island in play and I know he plays Daze I will still play it. The reason: if they Daze it you accomplished what Vial opts to do anyway and that is steal tempo and make countermagic irrelevant. I usually just throw my balls to the wall and play right into Daze, if they have to return a land you have gained tempo anyway. That said, there are situations where I would definately play around Daze, if I have 4 lands in play, 3 lands and Siege Gang Commander in hand and I absolutely need to resolve the SCG, I rather wait a turn but that speaks for itself I guess.

Legacy is a format that is defined by tempo even more than most formats. Hence, cards such as Vial, Daze and Mox Diamond are played. Read Pat Chapins latest article on tempo and you understand why you should play Goblins as aggressive as possible most of the time.

I realize that this post is very controversial and there are a lot of exceptions to what I just posted here, so I'm just talking about the general approach and what has been succesful for me playing Goblins.

[Tacosnape]

More often than not I agree with Mantis. I just charge ahead into Daze. But exceptions exist. Like if resolving that Siege-Gang Commander is almost guaranteed to net you the game, you might want to wait sometimes.

[FoulQ]

I guess I'm alone then in the REB debate. Honestly, I don't see the point of lowering the goblin count unless you have to, and you have to sometimes with relics, grips, etc. Forcing them to answer me has always worked better for me, boarding in REB against force of will why? With vial, ringleader, lackey, warchief (leads to surprises) there are plenty of ways to refill and get around counters. I love the card in Goyf Sligh and other decks, but in goblins I've always found you don't need answers to counters because you aren't playing gamebreakers like fireblast and price of progress, but relying on inevitability instead.

Yes, we play siege-gang commander, ringleader, etc. which we really WANT to resolve. But resolving those isn't the ultimate goal in my opinion, keeping the tempo on your side is what has always been the determining factor in my games. Once opposing goyfs start swinging I know the game is looking bad. As Mantis was saying "getting a vial dazed isn't that big of a deal because it accomplished its goal of establishing tempo." I feel REB takes away from the goal of tempo, and of course I can repeat the same drivel that has been repeated on every page about being a nongoblin.

But I'll give it one point: it's versatile and ok in some metas. W/o a presence of cards like FoF and Solidarity, I have found it to be lacking, and I played the card as a 4of in my sideboard for more than a year during solidarity. I don't have the room in my sideboard personally.

4 gy hate
4 creature hate
4 combo hate
3 grip

That's why I'm playing. REB is ok vs combo but I wouldn't board it in against decks just because they are packing FoW.

And I agree with you Mantis on daze basically. There are situations where you should play around it but a lot of the times I expect and welcome dazes. It ties in to why I hate REB, because it doesn't really fit in with the deck's strategy from what I've seen.

[Mantis]

About REB, I'm not sure it's that good against Threshold, but if I were to board it in against Thresh it was mainly to stop their Brainstorms and Ponders and not to beat their countermagic. But if anyone is planning to test REBs postboard against CB/Top I would love to hear the results.

The mainreason I would board it in Mono R is that it's the second best spell against combo right after Chalice we have. Additionally it does some good things against MUC and like I said possibly Ichorid.

In a multicolored version of Goblins I don't think I could find space for REBs as I would prefer Thoughtseize or Duress with black and Krosan Grip with green.

What I am curious about is how good Relic is against the new CB/Top decks which shy away from Nimble Mongoose. Basically we only hit Goyf there and assuming the RB Goblins version with Frogtossers, is that really worth it? Another one I'm hesatating about is Eva Green, it answers Goyf and can delay Tombstalker for a few turns. The problem is that we also need to side anti Plague measures against Eva Green and therefore we water our deck down a lot with Relic. I'm curious to hear your takes on this matter.
That said, I know how good Relic is against Canadian Threshold, Ichorid and Aggro Loam so it's not like I question it's inclusion.

[Tacosnape]

I think Relic is weak against new Threshold where it only hits Tarmogoyf, despite that the initial point of Relic was to stop Tarmogoyf. I think it's far stronger against Eva or Team America type decks, where it fulfills three functions:

1. Slows Tarmogoyf.
2. Slows Tombstalker.
3. Helps you cantrip into Land and/or Vial.

Against Threshold, however, I'm not sold.

[ScatmanX]

In a Rb version, with Frogtosser and Weirding, I woundn't run Relic, main nor SB. In a version with Edict, and 7-8 cost reducers, the cantrip to find land is not really needed, and Tormord's is better as grave hate, once Edict deals with Goyf/Stalker.

If the Thresh deck run's mongoose, then Relic is still awesome. If not, it isn't all that needed, since you have Weirdings or Stingscourer.
(just remembered, on the match I asked the question about Daze, I had 2 Relic's in hand, but he had a Needle for Relic in play so...=/)

[true story]

Terminate + Weirding = The shit. True story. Why maindeck Relic to "deal with Goyf" when you can off him instead?

[Wargoos]

What do you guys think about mooneffects from the side?
Some people try to convince my brother that those are actually viable choices.
I think it's crap since it takes away your on-colors and the ability to screw your opponents manabase.
Thoughts?

[Tacosnape]

What do you guys think about mooneffects from the side?
Some people try to convince my brother that those are actually viable choices.
I think it's crap since it takes away your on-colors and the ability to screw your opponents manabase.
Thoughts?

I like Moon in mono-red. I don't like it in splash colors. That simple.

In Mono-Red, two things are true.

1. You lose absolutely nothing by a Blood Moon being on the board.
2. You don't have splash colors fighting for sideboard space.

Therefore I think Moon's a perfectly viable board option if your metagame warrants it.

[ScatmanX]

It is not worth it. Moon Efects are to slow. They take too much SB space. If you're going to try something that punishes your oponent for playng non-basics, Price of Progress is the card you're looking for.