WOrb aggro control

[holkenborg]

This topic originates from this topic which was in the tournament reports part of this forum: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=13928

Media314r8 developed a list with good results (for more detail, see that topic):

// Lands
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tundra
1 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [10E] Island (1)
1 [ST] Plains (4)
1 [US] Forest (3)

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ARB] Lorescale Coatl
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [b] Winter Orb
2 [MM] Thwart*
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 4 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 4 [DIS] Leyline of the Void

Now I have made small changes about this deck and became 2nd in a 17 people tournament.

4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Rishadan Port
1 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath

3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Lorescale Coatl
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Snare (did not have Thwart yet)
3 Winter Orb

// SIDEBOARD
2 Krosan Grip
3 Propaganda
3 Submerge
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
1 Winter Orb

In this topic we would like to discuss about these types of aggro control decks that use Winter Orb as part of their strategy.

[Skeggi]

Could PtE be considered? Since it brings the land in tapped, with WOrb in play, it's hardly a drawback.

Also, is there no need for stuff like Relic Barrier or Auriok Transfixer?

[Maveric78f]

Thoughts:
I'm not sure one wants to play that many cantrips with WOrb.
PtE is probably a good idea.
I'm not fond of Coatl.
I would play the 4th Knight and a land toolbox before Coatl.
Thwart is probably very weak is a deck with only 15 islands or fetches.
Keep SS.
1 Life from the loam can't be bad.

Skeggi: why play bad cards?

[Skeggi]

Skeggi: why play bad cards?

To tap Orb... I guess you wouldn't need it with the Hierarchs and the bouncing of the Islands. Just a brainfart

[holkenborg]

Thoughts:
I'm not sure one wants to play that many cantrips with WOrb.
PtE is probably a good idea.
I'm not fond of Coatl.
I would play the 4th Knight and a land toolbox before Coatl.
Thwart is probably very weak is a deck with only 15 islands or fetches.
Keep SS.
1 Life from the loam can't be bad.

Skeggi: why play bad cards?

I agree about those artifact-tappers: They are overkill-cards.

I wouldn't change the number of cantrips for they give you the necessary cards like Winter Orb.

PtE is an idea, but what if you do not have Winter Orb (happens too of course)? Then there goes your tempo advantage. But it's an idea!

A 4th knight can be added, but I'd do that for a Coatl.

Thwart I cannot judge about.

1 Life from the Loam: why exactly? Which slot should it take? The deck does not need land recursion.

[Maveric78f]

LftL was in case you add utility lands instead of ponder. I'm not sure it(s possible to find lands other than wasteland/port that fit in the WOrb theme though.

[holkenborg]

Media314r8 added a Maze of Ith (see previous topic) as utility card.

[Skeggi]

If you can fit in cycle lands Loam ofcourse is amazing, especially with Coatl. But I think there's a thread for that failed deck around here somewhere already. Wasteland seems not as synergetic with WOrb as Rishadan Port, provided you have enough nonland mana sources on the table.

Instead of Thwart/Spell Snare you could perhaps try Force Spike or Mana Leak.

I agree with Maveric's point about he number of cantrips. 8 seems too much. Perhaps you should drop to 7 or 6.

Wouldn't Oblivion Ring as a 2-of or something be a nice addition to the deck?

[Media314r8]

@Thwart: The card has played well with the deck over the past two weeks and more playtesting. (my friend borrowed it and went 6th in a 24 person tournament at the same location, and I've played it against a battery of decks in playtesting, (Rb goblins, Enchantress, UGb thresh, Merfolk, Bg rock, zoo, droves of MWS which may/may not prove anything) and it has proven itself invaluable as hardcounters 5-6. With hierarch and Knight in the deck, it was not uncommon to hardcast. It is intended to be a midgame hardcounter under Worb, as it is only a two-of. It has really only been worse than SS against combo, as if I have three lands in play, and don't get chanted/duressed I've essentially already won.

@ Coatl: I will be testing -4 coatl (from my list) + 1 knight, +3 trygon MD, as well as -3 ponder, +1 knight, +2 trygon. I have yet to swing much with the snake, but he seems much more aggressive than knight or trygon. (while knight grows +2/+2 a turn, effectivly, he cannot swing while doing so) I will also be testing with 4 snakes, 4 knight, and 3 tops in place of the 3 ponders and 1 Worb, as late game synergy with top/knight is incredible, despite the lack of early game synergy with Worb.

I am hesitant in dropping my Worb count to 3, as I really want to see one every game, and the opponents it wrecks will often force/double daze/K grip it, making second Worbs 'live.'

[johanessen]

I would add Mox Diamond (instead of Nobles) and Crucible (replaciong LftL) along with Rishadan Ports. Knight of Realiquary seems that fits better than Coatl onto this deck. I like the idea of PtE

[Media314r8]

I would add Mox Diamond (instead of Nobles) and Crucible (replaciong LftL) along with Rishadan Ports. Knight of Realiquary seems that fits better than Coatl onto this deck. I like the idea of PtE

I did consider adding mox diamonds, but pushing the deck into abusing crucible seems to be going down a path that leads to terrageddon. I think the hierarchs do more than the moxen, and don't create card disadvantage. It may be worth testing

-4 coatl
-3 ponder
-1 winter orb
-1 hierarch
+3 top
+4 mox diamond
+1 land
+1 knight

but I feel that lowering the threat density again is too much of a danger of cool things, and makes grave hate hit all of our creatures, whereas coatl grew independently of the bin.

Path may have merit, but would necessitate 4 MD Worbs (which I suppose i am still in favor of- but it means more 'locked slots' when attempting to squeeze other cards in), and would make for worse pre-boards against combo decks. I'm again not sure if lowering the number of cantrips and increasing the number of 'similar, but worse' cards is best for the deck. (ala - ponders, + diamonds, - ponders, +PtE... both of which serve as additional hierarchs and swords, but do so worse)

BTW, my current decklist is as follows:

// Lands
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tundra
1 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [10E] Island (1)
1 [ST] Plains (4)
1 [US] Forest (3)
1 [DK] Maze of Ith

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ARB] Lorescale Coatl
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [b] Winter Orb
2 [MM] Thwart
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge

[holkenborg]

I would not cut Noble Hierarch. He is your best T1 drop. The exalted ability has surprised me positively! Also, I don't think you should cut too many creatures and exchange pressure + Winter Orb for some kind of Winter Orb + Knight combo only.

I like the improved list. Why not Tormod's Crypt instead of Relic of Progenitus? He has better interaction with both Winter Orb (0 costs) and your own Knights.

[Pneumatiker]

Don't know if it is worth its slot. But how about Blinkmoth Well as an one of tutor target for the Knight? If you don't need it u can also sac it to the Knight.

[miko]

you could try to add armaggeddon to the deck. maybee just as a sideboard option.
a scenario like this would be cool:
- casting armaggeddon
- opponent force of will
- you: thwart fow
- armageddon resolves

;)

[holkenborg]

Yes, that scenario is horrific indeed, but why play Armageddon to destroy lands when you also play Winter Orb to 'destroy' lands (in another sense). Both cards have the same function: keeping your opponent away from mana. So one could play armageddon instead of Winter Orb, but not together.

[Koby]

Don't know if it is worth its slot. But how about Blinkmoth Well as an one of tutor target for the Knight? If you don't need it u can also sac it to the Knight.

While the Blinkmoth Well can be a tutor target for the Knight, it cannot be sacrificed to it.

[Esper3k]

I'd just like to say that I really enjoyed Media314r8's tournament report and congratulations on doing so well!

I've been testing red and recently, black lists myself and I'll post more on my testings once I get more done.

Regarding the white list - in theory I think PtE is amazing if you have a Winter Orb out. However, again you have the drawbacks of it if you don't...

I really like the tricks you can do with the Heirarch + Port under Winter Orb, but again it makes you pretty reliant upon getting that Orb out.

[holkenborg]

What do you think about playing 4 Knight of the Reliquary and 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale?

[Esper3k]

What do you think about playing 4 Knight of the Reliquary and 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale?

What were you thinking of cutting for the Knight? One of the Coatls?

I think 3 is generally the correct number for the deck.

I'm not sure I'm sold on Tabernacle. You're not really running Manlands to get under it and even if you did, Manlands don't work well under Winter Orb. I like the Port + Hierarch trick more.

[Media314r8]

Also, hierarch + tabernacle = not a combo, and it eliminates the possibility of port-locking your opponent. It does effectively keep their mana tied down with orb out, but it's too symmetrical, and there is no way of saccing tabernacle save for a tutorable wasteland, and 2-for-1 ing to do something port essentially does better (while not tapping for mana) seems less than ideal. Blinkmoth well a perfect example of danger of cool things. If I were to run a colorless land other than port, it would be kor haven, to act as a mana producing maze of ith #2. Well is only good provided you have three mana open to allow you to untap MORE than three mana the next untap step, and this situation seems highly irrelavent/unlikely, and it would more likely just be better to draw the other colored source you need to just play the coatl/knight from your hand with the three mana, rather than get cute with orb tricks to untap lands for NEXT turn.