[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

[sauce]

bounce is amazing in tempo decks as it removes their last blocker for your goyf/goose, punks tombstalker which this deck is ill equipped to handle besides trading a goyf + bolt/fire or just growing a goyf to be 5/6 or bigger.

rushing river is just so crazy vs many decks cuz it can almost 2x timewalk them at time.. imagine if they got a few an equipment attached to some dude makign it bigger than goyf, they attack, you bounce the equipment and block.

there have been games vs staxx where i got my goyf oblivion ringed, and end of their turn i bounced the oblivion ring and their 2/6 wall and swung in for the win.

if you don't see how bounce is amazing, you're doing it wrong.

[Adan]

I can see Force Spike having it's right to exist in Tempo Thresh since it can support the deckconcept quite well.

Tempothresh works fine/is persistent till nowadays because it has got a fuckload of spells that trade 1to1 for opponens threats, gaining a huge tempo-advantage, in consequence making it very consistent and less vulnerable.
Well, except for my 4-2 bad beats at Hassloch where both losses were to Painter-Kills (which is actually impossible, but I didn't see a single Lightning Bolt or Spell Snare against them. Fuck Painter for having Toughness 3).
Force Spike is another excellent 1st Turn play beside Stifle and Daze if the opponent doesn't fetch. I can see Force Spike being as good as Spell Snare in the early game as it can counter stuff without making you fall back by neutering a landdrop you made a turn before (because this gives the opponent the opportunity to resolve a threat to which you might lose then as the first few turns are sometimes the most critical phases).

This fact however makes it very difficult to change something within the constellation of the deck. It gives you more counters, but I have found myself boarding out Dazes against some matchups frequently. And against these matchups (or good players in general), Force Spike is disqualified as a valid cardchoice as they will try to circumvent it by a different style of playing which doesn't even give you the speedadvantage that you want.

And well, I have sealed more games with Bouncespells than Force Spike. The best example that comes to my mind is the match against Landstill where he let me resolve 3 creatures due to Humility. When I attacked him, I played Wipe Away on his Humility and 12 Damage for GG.
The problem I see in the inclusion of Force Spike is that it turns some situations into "Oh, a threat resolved, now I lose". This includes 12/12 Vores, Crushers that you miss to Bolt, Humility, sometimes Goyfs, Counterbalance any any fat creature that may be bigger than your creatures. Some matchups are decided by Nimble Mongoose as they can't get rid of them except via bigger creatures.

However, I feel that I also have to get rid of my conservative way of thinking and will try Force Spike as soon as I find the opportunity or interest to play TempoThresh again.

[Bahamuth]

As I said before, I realise how bounce is able to get rid of problematic stuff like Humility or whatever. This by itself isn't a good reason, at least for me, to include it in the deck. I decide to cut te card as I find it to be dead in my hand it numerous occasions. It's a little harder to notice than those games you won on Bounce, but having a dead card in your hand can easily lose you the game.

I didn't know it was a good idea to board out Daze, actually. I almost never do that, except for those occasions where you board out 1 of many cards. In this case, Spike would have to be the first card to move out. In what matchups do you board Daze out?

[Adan]

In this case, Spike would have to be the first card to move out. In what matchups do you board Daze out?

Aggroloam and Landstill predominantly. Aggroloam can accelerate though Moxen and then via Loam, they will never miss a landdrop again which makes Daze terrible. I usually side them out for BEBs as they can hit Wish, Dreams, Assault and Crushers.

Landstill players will slowroll in any case and if they do it properly, they will be able to circumvent Dazes without neglecting their gameplan (play against DiF and you will know what I mean, he humiliated me 2 years ago at Hassloch. But on a sidenote, I was pretty much a noob to TT at that time and also overextended into WoG and such mistakes =/ ). But there was no chance of hitting ANYTHING with even multiple Dazes.

I have to hurry to school now, maybe I'll post later if something should come to my mind during my boring lessons...

[GGoober]

What are the bad matches for Tempo Thresh? I'm assuming like Dragon Stompy, it's really good at killing good decks but unlike Stompy, it's well-rounded and fast and reliable with Cantrips.

I'm going to assume that decks with more basics little fetches and a low mana curve compare out to Tempo Thresh. How does Zoo fit in as an example of a good/bad matchup? Even though they run fetches, they drop meaty 1-drops which may out tempo the deck. I'm really curious. Post-board I think Tempo Thresh does well with Submerge/BEB/pyroclasm. Anyway, is firespout better than Pyroclasm for TEmpo Thresh SB? Merfolks and Zoo are to be considered for their possible 3 toughness.

[Tangle.Wire]

I dont know how important the difference between 2/3 for Pyroclasm/Firespout is at all but i never played pyroclasm straight on turn 2 cause i have bolts and fire/ice as well. So firespout isnt that bad for 3 mana, i agree that 3 dmg are some times important, maybe for a painter ;D but i really liked em on the elves/merfolk matchups where lots of creatures are already set on x/2 and pyroclasm fails if the get champs like lord of atlantis,elvish champion etc on the table.

Otherwhise i think making pyroclasm more playable for 2 mana its good enough at all as you also can bolt or fire the champion creatures.

What do you guys think about an troll ascetic 1x on the mainboard, actually i always had enough artifact/enchantment solutions with grips and stifle+bounce so i am not sure to keep the trygon predator/clique on my meta theres a lot of g/w/b control or countertop/landstill so on some tests with other decks the Troll was so amasing as it is a 5th mongoose with regenerate what also can beat up aggro decks as well. But i am not sure about the cc of 1GG like every other deck i run 4 tropicals no basics and some fetches but so getting gg looks pretty hard to me.


-> How you guys think about a mana base with some basiclands and back to basics in the mainboard?

[Atog]

-> How you guys think about a mana base with some basiclands and back to basics in the mainboard?

There were a discussion about that and some testing before, and they all say same: Not gonna work. That can hear strange but go ahead and test. I tested sometime 1x Island and 1x Forest and that make manabase suck big time. There were hands where i had forest and wasteland, island and wasteland etc. We do not want to play anymore lands what doesn't make u-x than wastelands. They make screw enought when be only land in first seven cards.. So test that setup.

ps. B2B sees in merfolk side what plays 12-13 basics..

[emidln]

It's often difficult to get to 3 mana against Goblins or Merfolk, matchups where you'd normally want to bring in Firespout.

[Cenarius]

Thanks Adan. Finally someone that is (slightly) positive about the change. It's good to be openminded.

But why do you want to sideboard your daze's out against Landstill. Should you not remove other cards instead? Maybe you're right but it just seems that Daze is such a powerfull card against such a deck. They will run into a Daze if they mess it up or something. Attacking their manabase and having an early clock makes them not wanna wait. Or what do you think?
Agroloam is probably a good example of removing your daze's. More removal is probably better than hoping that they'll run in a daze.

Adan, how does your sideboard look like? How can u possibly find room for Blue Elemental Blast's? Instead of Disrupt's?

@ Sauce
" bounce is amazing in tempo decks " How can that be true?

I know that sometimes Rushing River is pretty tight but you're only saying the absolute good things about the card. I know for sure that Rushing River EOT bounce: Oblivion ring is nice but would you not have won with Force Spike's instead?
I know that bouncing Humility's, Moat's and other things seem pretty crazy and good but in fact, just like Rob (Bahamuth) just said, having a dead card in your hand may loose you the game.

"if you don't see how bounce is amazing, you're doing it wrong." This is an insult I'll gladly take. Hopefully, when everyone or atleast someone makes a top8 result with Force Spike that is not Bahamuth or me I'll quote u again. Deal?

@ crz87

I tested numerous games against Merfolk and Zoo. Zoo is a pretty good matchup pre-board already if their list doesn't play Vial and some Basics (2) (the list we are testing right now). You can easily manascrew them and bolt will kill every creature they have, except Goyf ofcourse (maybe your lucky).
Submerge in sideboard will make games even easier.
Merfolk is a kind of deck where u need a particular strong hand with a lot of burn + Goyf's. Maybe a spell snare for the LoA/Standstill. Fire/Ice is a pretty good bomb. Our sideboard (of Team Nijmegen) gives us:
4 Pyroblast
3 Pithing Needle (with great Targets)
2 Pyroclasm

As you can see, 9 cards in sideboard that improve the matchup is pretty much. With 12 removal cards and 11 cards that deal with Vial the matchup will be 60%/65% or something, atleast I guess. You'll have to keep in mind that some lists play Back to Basics. What do you guys think of the Merfolk matchup's?

Btw, don't play firespout. It kills 50% of your own creatures and costs 3 mana. Way to much.

@ Tangle.Wire

Troll Ascetic seems to be a creature that does not fit in this deck. The casting cost just seems too much. GG seems hard to get. I don't think it belongs in the deck.
About Back to Basics: Maybe Magus of the Moon is a better idea. It's a kill that not completely shuts down yourself and has a better effect (Fetch + Untapped Dual). However, both cards seem not that great for a deck like this in its present form.

[betterthenandrew]

What do you guys think about an troll ascetic 1x on the mainboard,... so on some tests with other decks the Troll was so amasing as it is a 5th mongoose with regenerate what also can beat up aggro decks as well. But i am not sure about the cc of 1GG like every other deck i run 4 tropicals no basics and some fetches but so getting gg looks pretty hard to me.

I'm prettty sure Troll Ascetic is not what this deck want, it seem terribly inefficient. I think Richard Feldman said it best:

Troll Ascetic is a three-power “beater” for three, which has not been an acceptable power-to-casting-cost ratio for a “beater” in Extended since Call of the Herd and Morphling were good, let alone in the era of Doran and Wooly Thoctar and, hell, even Ashenmoor Gouger. Worse, this chump has the audacity to show up to the party with two toughness, forcing you to pay mana when you want him to block. On top of his shoddy baseline stats, he demands two mana to regenerate, which has never been a reasonable price for regeneration. And the final ability on this lump of inefficiency is that he makes it difficult for your opponent to do you the favor of removing him from the table for you. Man, where do I sign up?

In short a 3 power, 3 mana beater that doesn't really do anything or have evasion (compared to say, Tyrogen Predator or Vendilion Clique) and that requires you to hold open 2 mana at all times to be any good seems pretty bad. And you need to hit the double green on top of that? No, I'm pretty sure its a poor fit here. Bad for tempo. Pretty much just seems bad actually.

[Adan]

But why do you want to sideboard your daze's out against Landstill. Should you not remove other cards instead? Maybe you're right but it just seems that Daze is such a powerfull card against such a deck. They will run into a Daze if they mess it up or something. Attacking their manabase and having an early clock makes them not wanna wait. Or what do you think?
Agroloam is probably a good example of removing your daze's. More removal is probably better than hoping that they'll run in a daze.

Adan, how does your sideboard look like? How can u possibly find room for Blue Elemental Blast's? Instead of Disrupt's?

A good Landstill player will play around your manadenial anyway which makes Daze worse. Daze can be powerful if your manadenial plan succeeds, but if it doesn't, it blows.

But when the manadenial plan fails, I usually hold back Stifles and Wasteland just to attack Mishras and to stifle a Decree or a Elsbeth (I guarantee, that's techy. Stifle Elsbeth and then attack it to get rid of it very easily.)

And well, REBs are godlike.

And yes, I play gooba's conventional SB, but threw out the Disrupts for BEBs after I found them quite useless after 9 rounds of nerding around at Annecy.

[DragoFireheart]

Is it possible to add a single island to this deck to help it vs the mirrior matches and moon decks?

[Atog]

Is it possible to add a single island to this deck to help it vs the mirrior matches and moon decks?

There were a discussion about that and some testing before, and they all say same: Not gonna work. That can hear strange but go ahead and test. I tested sometime 1x Island and 1x Forest and that make manabase suck big time. There were hands where i had forest and wasteland, island and wasteland etc. We do not want to play anymore lands what doesn't make u-x than wastelands. They make screw enought when be only land in first seven cards.. So test that setup.

[Al-ucard]

Is it possible to add a single island to this deck to help it vs the mirrior matches and moon decks?

I play 6 fetches, 4 wasteland, 4 tropical, 3 volcanic and 1 island and for now, its ok for me.

[Elfrago]

I play 6 fetches, 4 wasteland, 4 tropical, 3 volcanic and 1 island and for now, its ok for me.

Outside of mws I use ghis configuration too (becouse I'm missing the 4th volcanic ) and it works fine.

Still, balls to the walls with 8 duals is better IMHO.

[Cenarius]

I see that like everyone plays this manabase:

4 wasteland
6 fetch
8 duals

Why do you (so everyone that plays this manabase) think this manabase is the best? It's best to see everyone answer this question probably.

Personally I think that this manabase has more raw power:

4 Wasteland
8 Fetch
6 Duals

Since it:
Makes Brainstorm better
Makes Ponder better
The chance of screwing is smaller than playing 8 duals (Fe: 2 Volcanic's seem horrible with some green cards in hand)
Gives you Threshold more easier

I know that Stifle is probably thé or just a reason to play only 6 fetch but what are the other arguments?

Let me know

[Atog]

The chance of screwing is smaller than playing 8 duals (Fe: 2 Islands's seem horrible with some green cards in hand)
Let me know

Agree. Have you tested that setup or did you just think that could work ok?

[Cenarius]

huh, why do you quote my passage in a wrong way?

The chance of screwing is smaller than playing 8 duals (Fe: 2 Volcanic's seem horrible with some green cards in hand)

It's Volcanic Island's instead of 2 Islands

Well my current list plays 6 duals and never really got problems with it. Maybe 1 game in like many that I became colour-screwed but that had no further implications on the match.
I'm really curious why you guys play 8 duals and 6 fetch.

[Serbitar]

I started playing the deck with 6 Duals, 8 Fetches, because I, too, thought it would make Brainstorm better and enable faster Threshold. I switched back after playing some games against Wastelock decks, where the situation came up that all Tropicals/Volcanics had been wasted.
I admit that's not very common and may also perhaps be disregarded, because most games where it happens you either loose or win anyway... (threat on board or not)

[Atog]

huh, why do you quote my passage in a wrong way?

The chance of screwing is smaller than playing 8 duals (Fe: 2 Volcanic's seem horrible with some green cards in hand)

It's Volcanic Island's instead of 2 Islands

Well my current list plays 6 duals and never really got problems with it. Maybe 1 game in like many that I became colour-screwed but that had no further implications on the match.
I'm really curious why you guys play 8 duals and 6 fetch.

I was quoting right. What i mean for that was, you get too often colorscrewed with 6 duals. I just can imagine how much worse it's going when you add 2 basics. You will have more hands where you have maybe one cantrip and island or wasteland. I don't know how often other players are mulliganing but i find myself too often in situation where i have wasteland and 6 other non-land cards in my first seven. That sucks big time. Add 2 basics more? No way. I think goobafish and others have tested those basic lands and have dropped them just because they won't fit in this deck.