[DTB] Vial Goblins

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I dont like your deck.

1. 4 Ports was to much in combination with 2 Gemstone mines and the Chieftain's double R cost.
2. 2 Gemstone caverns is really great.
3. 2 Boartusk in the board combined with the 3 Chieftains seem to make Plague concerns history.
4. Sideboard seems to be very universal and balanced but can it be improved?
5. I really like Goblin Pyromancer... it's one of the few tutor targets that actually wins games where Sharpshooter or Siege-Gang can not.

1&2.) As The GreenOne sayed your mana base needs work. I would at least run 23 lands (3 ports, 4 waste, 16 mountains.) And Gemstone is bad!


3.) Boartusk also seems medicor at best. If you want more lords, wich is a bad idea i think (i run 1), play more chieftains.

4.) I like your SB! Anarchy is debatable

5.) YES!

EDIT: My cards for m10 instead of my 3 moggs
1 Chieftain,
1 Relic,
4th incinerator,

[stereosound]

Gemstone caverns to me seems a little less useful in monored simply because you don't take advantage of the every other mana option. It's saved my ass quite a few times (besides the turn two 3-mana) just by producing a black for me.

[Dark_Cynic87]

So is Chieftain going in, or is it good enough? Is Warchief better or worse? What's replacing Fanatic, or is it going to stay even though it sucks hardcore after M10? Just a few questions. It's in my Gauntlet, and I like to keep my gauntlet as up-to-date as possible. Thanks for your help.

Pce,

--DC

[1maarten1]

So is Chieftain going in, or is it good enough? Is Warchief better or worse? What's replacing Fanatic, or is it going to stay even though it sucks hardcore after M10? Just a few questions. It's in my Gauntlet, and I like to keep my gauntlet as up-to-date as possible. Thanks for your help.

Pce,

--DC

I think in Mono R chieftain is very nice, but warchief is always better since Cost reduce>>> +1/+1. I cut Fanatics, i used to run 1 for tutor if needed, but i cut it since chieftain was printed. I Think there is place for 1/2 chieftains in a R/B or R/g/b or whatever list. But since im more a fan of mono R i dont have to much to say bout that.

~Maarten

[enemyofarsenic]

Skirk Prospectors for Mogg Fanatics =]

[Mantis]

Warchief is better than Chieftain for sure. I can't make room for more than 1 though without butchering my curve or getting double haste effects. I'm not even sure I want one, don't get your hopes up guys, I really don't think the printing of Chieftain will impact the deck all that much.

On another note, as expressed by Smmenen in his article today, Dreadstill was top dog at the recent SCG 5K tournament. And rightly so, the deck is still amazing and one of the few decks I actually have a hard time beating. Maybe we need to value Tinkerer a bit higher in the future if this trend picks up. Oh and don't tell me Weirding deals with Dreadnought because that's just a lie, no sane Dreadstill player will throw his Dreadnought out there if he couldn't protect it (with Spell Snare, FoW or CB/Top). At least you can drop Tinkerer through a Vial or just play it before they get the chance to play Dreadnought. I'm currently thinking of making room for either 1 or 2 of these depending on how I like the Chieftain.

[ScatmanX]

Agains´t URx Dreadstill, you have Weirdings, Tinker, REB, and you can also have 1 King, to give your guys unblockabilitie. You could also run Meekstone, so he would only attack you once.

[Mantis]

Agains´t URx Dreadstill, you have Weirdings, Tinker, REB, and you can also have 1 King, to give your guys unblockabilitie. You could also run Meekstone, so he would only attack you once.

Weirding and King are all very poor answers to Dreadnought. I especially hate Weirding because they just activate Factory in response or just counter it. King isn't very hot as your team still dies to Clasm and they usually only have 1 blocker anyway.

Meekstone is kind of interesting, seems decent against both Eva Green and Dreadstill. I'll think about this one, not sure if it's good enough but might be worthy of some testing time.

Still Tinkerer is insane against Dreadstill, it stops the CB/Top lock, Factory, Needle and Dreadnought AND it attacks. REB is pretty good against them as it stops Standstill and sometimes can randomly stop a Dreadnought if they savagely misplay or you have them with their back against the wall anyway.

[ScatmanX]

King is really not an answer, more like a weapon, but I wouldnt run him either. REB, in the other hand, rocks, once they have to counter it AND your Weirdings. You can save Wasteland to Mishra. Sure they can Stifle but, if they have 2 counters, stifle, and mana to activate factory after they play Dreadnought+Stifle, you´re in bad shape anyways.

Meekstone is also great agains´t Thresh decks, once every creature they have (exept maybe Pridemage and that flying 2/3) will only attack once. Same holds true for Pox (stop Stalker and Nihilith), Coatl Orb and the like, Dragon, Faerie, Demon, Imp and Angel Stompy. The card is better with Mogg Warmarchal and Mad Auntie, since you can block forever (of course they won´t swing just to be blocked, but then you can wait to assemble the alpha strike).
We have discussed this card in the past, and came to the conclusions:
1) not enough board space
2) In Rb, it makes Weirdings bad, once they sac the tapped dude.

[true story]

Terminate is how you deal with dreadnaught, true story.

[Tacosnape]

Triple Pyrokinesis also kills a Dreadnought. I actually did this recently. Still lost the game horribly as a result of having no cards left, but it was hilarious.

Warren Weirding isn't all that bad of an answer to Phyrexian Dreadnought. If Dreadstill drops it turn 2, they're tapped out. If they wait until turn three or four, you've started amassing your awesomeness by this point. You also run Wasteland. If you run Chalice, Chalice at 1. If you're me and run Pithing Needle instead, Needle the manland so Weirding kills the Dreadnought. Or Goblin Tinkerer the Dreadnought. Whatever. I've lost to quite a few Dreadnoughts and handled quite a few also. If you're that concerned, there's a million cards you can run to annihilate Dreadnought, including Engineered Explosives, Shattering Spree, or even Terminate. Or Backlash, if you want to be a silly bitch.

[Mantis]

Meekstone still remains interesting the more I think about it. I will definately test it. Could potentially work against Tempo Thresh, Aggro Loam, Stompy decks and maybe even Eva Green (though they have Hypnotic Specter and Pulse).

I wasn't looking for a list of (terrible) answers to Dreadnought, I simply wanted to point out that it's quite likely we will see more Noughts in the near future again so be prepared. I will most likely pack more Tinkerers in that event and be prepared.

We talked about Terminate, everyone disliked it, no results back up it's inclusion and still you keep spamming it every time you get the chance. If it works for you fine, I don't want to splash a color for a terrible instant sorry.

[GreenOne]

My monored build includes 2 Stingscourger, 1 Tinkerer maindeck (and still have the space for 2/3 Chieftains) and I never had any kind of problems unless they got the 12/12 down on turn 2. If they do, they still suffer from lackey connecting / vial to drop un uncounterable Scourger.

Otherwise, the probability you can race the Dreadnough or have 1 or more solutions in hand and a good way to make them uncounterable becomes too high to worry about it.

G2 and G3, if there's Pyroclasm involved, then you might have some problem, but G1 is definetly yours.

You probably have some more issues with the trampling dude cause War Marshall and Relic, while proving to be really good in some matchups, are quite suckish against Dreadstill.

[ScatmanX]

In a build with Chieftain, would Mogg Warmarchal become even better?
Has anyone tested Chieftain in Rb(x) lists? Is it better than Mad Auntie?

[The Grim Reaper]

Recently, in mono-red goblins, Relic of Progenitus has been run due to that fact that it fits nicely in the curve and there were no other "wow" goblins available. After the printing of Goblin Chieften, I think it is safe to say that Chieften can easily replace them. It may shove the curve a little higher, but curve isn't the only important factor in Goblins. The other is card quality. No one should be running Mogg Fanatics and Skirk Prospectors simply because they are a one drop. They should be run because they are good cards, which they are not at the moment.

Here is my current Mono Red list:

// Lands
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
15 [UNH] Mountain
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
3 [M10] Goblin Chieften
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
3 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

Curve: 1: 8
2: 10 (effectively)
3: 11
4: 5
5: 3

Possible Variations: -1 Chieften or Siege-gang +1 Goblin Tinkerer

This is the purest form of Mono-Red Goblin Aggro. You will not find a more consistent goblin deck with a faster clock. Go ahead and test it, you will see.

Current Issues:

1. Plague. The worst thing about Mono-red goblins is that it has very poor answers to engineered plague. I propose a sideboarding strategy of 1x Chieften and several additional Goblin Kings in order to combat this. With only Goblin King (and the shitty Goblin General) in the past as an answer to plague, up to 8 possible +1/+1 effects for goblins could pose a strong AND aggressive solution to plague.

2. Combo. Board 8 cards (pillars/chalice) or just accept your loss. You still have a chance with this heavily aggressive version if they are slow at going off.

Happy testing - and enjoy the fact that they finally printed a playable goblin again.

[GreenOne]

list + considerations

I agree with almost everything you said, but have to say some things.

- you have one more 4cc drop in Pyromancer (5 total).

- I don't believe this deck actually curves that well with such a high cc AND few lands. If you want to run 8 1cc then you need the 24th land. Being it Gemstone Caverns, Mutavault, Mountain, or even Goblin Burrows (a 3/3 goblin can exchange with goyf! ) is your choice.

- About the curve you're right. This deck doesn't need shitty 1cc drops just because they are 1cc drops. However, it has to make some plays before the third turn to still be aggressive. Gempalm Incinerator is not actually a turn 2 drop, considering it actually acts like removal only when you have a couple of more critters in play, and by turn 2 you have only the 40% of probability of having a creature in play, and the probability of the opponent having a X/1 critter in play in conjunction is really really low.
That said, if there are no 1cc dudes good enough to fit this slot, you should be playing more 2cc drops. We have some good ones (Tinkerer, Stingscourger, War Marshall). Go play them in place of your 3rd SGC and/or Pyromancer.

- Plague is not that great of an issue. Plague is usually played by decks with an already bad goblin mathup (UGb or the like), so game 1 should be our business, and land denial is helping greatly against it G2 and 3. We also have only 8 1/1s in the deck. 4 of them really shine only in the first 3 turns of the game (lackey), 4 of them can tutor off Chieftain or Boartusk as +1/+1 effects. Oh, we also have 2-3 +1/+1 effects maindeck.
Please, don't play King. Ever. It sucks in the mirror, red decks are already running a good number of pyroclasm / bolts, and if you're attacking to use your landwalk ability, a single removal on your king and 1 or 2 blocks you didn't expect are going to ruin your day.
If you're looking into more +1/+1 effects than Boartusk Liege is what you're in search of: it resists Bolt and even double plague or Pyroclasm or darkblast. A 2of in play double pump themselves to 5/6. I don't know if it will still be needed with Chieftain in the deck, but if you need more, just play Boartusk.

[The Grim Reaper]

I agree with almost everything you said, but have to say some things.

- you have one more 4cc drop in Pyromancer (5 total).

- I don't believe this deck actually curves that well with such a high cc AND few lands. If you want to run 8 1cc then you need the 24th land. Being it Gemstone Caverns, Mutavault, Mountain, or even Goblin Burrows (a 3/3 goblin can exchange with goyf! ) is your choice.

- About the curve you're right. This deck doesn't need shitty 1cc drops just because they are 1cc drops. However, it has to make some plays before the third turn to still be aggressive. Gempalm Incinerator is not actually a turn 2 drop, considering it actually acts like removal only when you have a couple of more critters in play, and by turn 2 you have only the 40% of probability of having a creature in play, and the probability of the opponent having a X/1 critter in play in conjunction is really really low.
That said, if there are no 1cc dudes good enough to fit this slot, you should be playing more 2cc drops. We have some good ones (Tinkerer, Stingscourger, War Marshall). Go play them in place of your 3rd SGC and/or Pyromancer.

- Plague is not that great of an issue. Plague is usually played by decks with an already bad goblin mathup (UGb or the like), so game 1 should be our business, and land denial is helping greatly against it G2 and 3. We also have only 8 1/1s in the deck. 4 of them really shine only in the first 3 turns of the game (lackey), 4 of them can tutor off Chieftain or Boartusk as +1/+1 effects. Oh, we also have 2-3 +1/+1 effects maindeck.
Please, don't play King. Ever. It sucks in the mirror, red decks are already running a good number of pyroclasm / bolts, and if you're attacking to use your landwalk ability, a single removal on your king and 1 or 2 blocks you didn't expect are going to ruin your day.
If you're looking into more +1/+1 effects than Boartusk Liege is what you're in search of: it resists Bolt and even double plague or Pyroclasm or darkblast. A 2of in play double pump themselves to 5/6. I don't know if it will still be needed with Chieftain in the deck, but if you need more, just play Boartusk.

Thanks for noticing the Pyromancer, completely forgot about it.

Is 24 lands really a good number? In practice I've almost always had enough with 23, especially in mono-red, which has no fetches. I even run 23 lands in 3c goblins with little to no difficulties. I was considering trying the gemstone caverns, has that been good to anyone in testing?

I might try Boartusk in the sideboard, but it may be better to focus on more difficult matchups, as you said.

My current sideboard looks something like:

4x Pyrokenesis
4x Chalice
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Relic of Progenitus (May be Tinkerer/Sharpshooter/(chieften or boartusk) combo

I might try out Goblin War Marshals, since that seems like the hip thing to do these days, but they seem a bit boring compared to the alternatives available.

[true story]

We talked about Terminate, everyone disliked it, no results back up it's inclusion and still you keep spamming it every time you get the chance. If it works for you fine, I don't want to splash a color for a terrible instant sorry.

I wouldn't suggest splashing a color just for 1 card, but if you're already in black you should TRY it. I run 3 Terminate 3 Weirding, I can't give you match by match results. I just know it's awesome and the couple of people I let borrow the deck were amazed at how good Terminate was. I know it's not a Goblin, who cares? Vial isn't a Goblin it's still awesome. True story.

[The Grim Reaper]

I wouldn't suggest splashing a color just for 1 card, but if you're already in black you should TRY it. I run 3 Terminate 3 Weirding, I can't give you match by match results. I just know it's awesome and the couple of people I let borrow the deck were amazed at how good Terminate was. I know it's not a Goblin, who cares? Vial isn't a Goblin it's still awesome. True story.

I've tried running Terminates and found that in the long run its just better to run Incinerator and Weirding. The fact that they are goblins is quite important due to Matron/Ringleader. Also they don't beat down like incinerator when you are desperate to do so.

Also, do you actually say "True Story" a lot in real life? Because if you do, I can't imagine how the people around you restrain themselves from beating your face in with a tire iron. Am I the only person who finds this extremely grating? I don't normally insult people, but reading "true story" at the end of every one of your posts is extremely annoying. Could you please stop doing it? Thank you.

[FoulQ]

Most of us have tried terminate. Most of us have come to the same results, except for you. I'm not saying you are wrong, because obviously terminate is great in your metagame. The better way to say it is that you are not right.

If people are honestly upping their curve by removing fanatics for chieftans / warmarshals / etc. then I might consider ancient tomb. I'm going to test it I think under M10 rules and was wondering if anybody has any opinions on it or testing results or anything. Yes I realize that it has been discussed before but dropping fanatics and playing a singleton tomb I haven't really seen here.

It makes me sad, because I was enjoying a slightly low land count maxing out on tempo cards, 4 sting and 4 fanatic.

Also, is frogtosser still hot stuff? People were loving him for a while. I'm thinking of either going Rb frogtosser route or MonoRed warmarshal / chieftan / sgc route.