Frogtosser's still hot. I'm varying between 2 and 4.
Haven't got around to extensive Chieftain testing yet. Too caught up in other decks at the moment.
Stingscourger's worth further consideration in RB if you're expecting a lot of Dreadnought.
It's worth noting, however, that most Dreadstill decks pack Spell Snare, and every answer to Dreadnought listed (Weirding, Terminate, Tinkerer, Stingscourger, Tin-Street) gets offed by Spell Snare. I think if Dreadnought's a huge problem that Shattering Spree might get a look, due to it being nearly impossible to counter.
Originally Posted by majikal
Vs. Dreadstill though, you can generally sneak Vial or Lackey through enabling an easy-to-drop Sting. That's how I usually win the MU when they get a quick Dreadnought with counter backup.
Agreed. I can back this up since this is how i turned a decent rank in a recent local tourney. Personally, I think Sting is the best way to get rid of Dreadnought, and this is actually backed up by pretty extensive testing.
Luke Ario sweeps...and not only in Brawl
At least you tried running Terminate, alot of people just say fuck it. To be honest when I put them in the deck I was playing against Tombstone alot and Gempalm rarely killed Goyf or Tombstalker, I switched to Terminate and they have yet to suck, even on the rare occasion I flip 1 with Ringleader.
As for saying true story... Where the fuck do you think I got my name from. I would absolutely love it if somebody tried to beat my face in with a tire iron. True story.
I tested ancient tomb more than a few times. It sucks if you're not going for a combo version:
- it has a bad synergy with 1RR spells (that are now upped to 7 in the maindeck) and other cards added with fanatic removal (War Marshals, Tinkerer..)
- It has a bad, bad synergy with Warchief. After a warchief you got actually to cast only SGC and Ringleader effectively out of this land.
- Oh, it gives you pain. This actually matters in every aggro/burn matchup.
The more lands it has, the more goblin enjoys. You almost always want to make your first 4-5 land drops, to be able to use Wastelands and Ports effectively and to drop your more costy dudes when vial/lackey got answered. The opponent might play mana denial effects too. 24 Lands reduces the number of mulligans for hands with little lands too. You can actually be a little more comfortable keeping a 1 lander with a lackey/vial, if you got a good number of 2cc drops. The only annoying thing of 24 lands is that your ringleaders got a little bit weaker, but at a negligible measure.
23 lands was a good number when fanatics were lowering the curve and allowing for tempo boosts. The deck now relies more on 2-3 cc to gain tempo, and thus gotta have a little more lands.
Caverns is a strange card, that must be tested carefully.
Sometimes is suckish when you just draw it and you needed a red source.
Sometimes you don't want to feel the pain of pitching something and it's just a grey land.
Sometimes it allows your 1cc drops to be protected by daze.
Sometimes it allows to curve a lot better, and do something like turn1 piledriver, turn 2 Warchief, turn 3 matron-> piledriver and win. Even turn 1 Vial + Wasteland is huge.
And.. sometimes it's like playing with 1 wasteland more against Hypergenesis!
Remember 2 things when testing it:
- You can pitch lands to it!
- Obviously side it out when you're on the play (unless you're playing against mana denial decks).
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
I have an oddball question. Would you run an extra set of Matrons (8 total) if you could? Would increasing the consistency of what you draw be worth the decreased raw power? Would the ability to access silver bullet goblins be worth it? Would the fact that these extra (4) Matrons aren't Goblins be deal-breaking? I will be tinkering with a list & try to post evolutions, but I was interested in the thinking of the community (not that you people determine what I do or believe, but the competent & thoughtful ones among you do give valuable perspective...amidst the white noise...).
TL,DR: if you think Saito is ok, check your moral compass. It may be broken. - Spikey Mikey, amen brother
WE know what the price of progress is (often 8-10 life). - Cait Sith
A casual stasis deck? You must not really like your friends. Do you play it before or after you pull the wings off of flys and microwave the neighbor's cat? - EwokSlayer
No, imperial recruiter does not belong the deck.
EDIT: this is because it's a lot inferior to matron due to not being cheatable with lackey, reduced in cost with warchief, doesn't pump piledriver, doesn't have +1/+1 from chieftain, haste, it's not ringleaderable, etc etc. Every non-goblin card in the deck must be really huge, not just an inferior version of what the deck already runs. And, if I was allowed to play with 8 matrons, that deck would actually be a combo one. I'd suggest you to post it in the foode chain gobbos thread. Don't know if it's worth it even there though.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
This is the list I'm going to play post M10. It's more focussed on power than on elegance.
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
5 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Weirding
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
Without the Fanatic, Earwig Squad lacks a lot of its earlygame power (sad but true, I was a longtime advisor), thus I cut them in favour of more raw meat.
Relic and Weirdings are really good in my meta (Dreadstill, Loam), while the basic swamp is a real beating against wastelock.
Has anyone considered Moggcatcher in the deck as a one-of? I have a free slot and noticed this card as a possible addition. What do you think?
Also, isn't Thorn of Amethyst better than Chalice in the combo matchup combined with the mana denial? (that is, if we live long enough to play it)
Generally, you need a very good reason to include a non-Goblin here. I don't see one with Moggcatcher.
Chalice isn't played only because of its impact in the combo MU; you also play Chalice against Burn, Elves, Zoo-variants and so on. It's a versatile card and hence worthwhile. Thorn is pretty damn narrow, and slow where it counts; against combo, you want your disruption down turn 1 (so you can spend your lands on mana denial and on playing guys to actually them), and you don't want to be spending mana on it. That's why Chalice is the only card that passes the test for me.
I have finalized my boarding plans for my current list:
15 Mountain, 4 Waste, 4 Port, 4 Vial
3 Relic
4 Lackey/Incinerator/Piledriver/Chief/Ringleader/Matron
2 Siege Gang
4 Mogg War Marshal
SB:
4 Chalice
3 REB
3 Boartusk Liege
2 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Anarchy
1 Relic of Progenitus
Tempo Thresh:
+3 Boartusk Liege, +1 Relic
-1 Siege Gang, -3 Gempalm
Dreadstill no Goyf:
+2 Tinkerer, +3 REB, +3 Liege
-3 Relic, -4 Incinerator, -1 War Marshall
w/ Goyf:
+2 Tinkerer, +2 REB, +2 Boartusk Liege
-3 Incinerator, -1 War Marshall, -1 SGC, -1 Ringleader
Landstill:
2 Anarchy, 1 REB
-3 Relic
/w Plague (black in general)
+1 Anarchy, +3 Liege
-3 Relic, 1 Gempalm
Eva Green
+1 Relic, +3 Liege
-1 Siege Gang, -1 War Marshall, -2 Piledriver
Zoo:
-1 Relic
+1 Boartusk
Merfolk:
+2 Tinkerer, +3 REB
-3 Relic, -2 War Marshal
Aggro Loam:
+1 Relic
-1 Siege Gang
CounterTop:
+1 Boartusk (Plagues, more)
-1 War Marshal
My boarding plans heavily anticipate on opposing Clasm/Firespout/Plagues to help you understand my choice of Lieges.
Feedback would be appreciated, would you do anything differently?
I guess that in the mirror, -3 Relic, +3 Liege.
And what about Combo? You just die right?
Jus think that 3 REB's, and I'm talking after running 3 for a while, should be 3 Pyroknesis, that helps Merfolk (as REB), and mirror, elves, Survival, Soo, and others. A smart Dreadstill player play around REB (that split second stifle), and against Landstill you still have the edge so...
Question: After M10 will your list remain the same? I hear the new goblin is really good with your 4 Mogg Warmarshall.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
You sometimes want a removal for those Factories (when you don't have Waste/Port, Waste got stifled, etc.) and your war marshall isn't really chumping Dreadnough. So I'd go with +1 Incinerator -1 War Marshall.
Ringleader is too important in the matchup to side out (your goblin count decrease by just 2 post SB), so I'd go with -2 War Marshall or just board a less REB.
If it's still running Moat/Humility/Elspeth, etc you need all the Anarchies you got. +1 Anarchy -1 Gempalm/War Marshal
Piledriver is a threat even with a plague out and without Liege, where War Marshall is not. -2/3 War marshall, -0/1 Piledriver
If they're running lavamancer then it might be a good idea. If they're not you're keeping 2 Relics just for their Goyfs, so I'd go with +3 Liege -3 Relic. Boartusk is actually a body that survives bolt, makes it easier against Pyroclasm, and blocks Nacatl, Pridemage, Watchwolf like a champ.
Are you going to play some Chieftains MD/SB after M10? I played a bit with them and they're good. Damn they really are.
About Kinesis: it's really a card you wanna see against tribal decks (there are soo many), survival, the rock, etc. Why did you decide not to play it? Are those Chalices + Pyroblasts going to win the combo matchup? Hope they put you in a very favourable G2 and G3, since you're going to always lose G1. If it's not you can just cut the chalices for Kinesis, since you're not siding chalices in any other matchup (even threshold/dreadstill)
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Okay some solid advice, I typed up the plans rather quickly so you pointed out some obvious flaws. Agreed on pretty much all acounts but I think I am boarding correctly against UR Dreadstill, Gempalm is not needed with 4 Wastes, 4 Ports and 2 Tinkerer. Keeping in one Gempalm isn't going to help all that much as Tinkerer seems better against them in pretty much every situation.
I still have a tournament before the release of M10 so that's why I don't have Chieftains in my list yet. I haven't tested the Chieftains yet, but I'm not sure what to take out of the list, I'm pretty sure some War Marshals can go, as they are solid but are lacking in some matchups.
Pyrokinesis is a decent card, but one that I don't think I really need. There are not a whole lot of matchups where I need them right now, Goblins is hardly being played and I am going to be so bold and claim I can handle pretty much everyone in a Goblins mirror. We don't need it against Merfolk and Elves is pretty much non existant over here. I guess they could be good against Zoo, but I don't think they tip the scales in your favor all that much, we are talking about a few precent maybe.
On the other hand Chalice, REB and Boartusk Liege do great things against hard matchups, turning unfavorable ones to favor you. Chalice gets sided in against Burn, combo and Elves.
Anarchy is a special case as it grants inevetiability against Enchantress and White Stax.
Reading that you can probably tell what I am trying to achieve with my sideboard. I believe if I play well I should be able to beat decks where I need Kinesis, but no playskill in the world could save you from the claws of Enchantress or Combo, you need help there. Also, maybe I expect too much of pitching 2 cards, but I've been very underwhelmed with Pyrokinesis against something with fatties such as Zoo. It may be a great tempo card, but giving up 2 buisiness spells can set you back a lot as well. Perhaps I'm wrong but I just never liked the card, if it traded 2 for 2 guaranteed I'd love it but most of the time it one for twos you.
To answer your question about my Combo matchup, yes I am up 4-0 in matches against combo (I honestly don't know why I keep winning, I guess the players on MWS suck with combo, but I beat one IRL too).
EDIT: One more thing, I think having 4 War Marshals may be the wrong choice. 3 is a better number I think so I might cut one for a Stingscourger or a Tinkerer.
If you need a testing partner for combo you can contact me. I'd love to see a plan like this turning the matchup against combo, cause you're using cards that can be sided against some other matchup, unlike bricks like Chant.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Split for first yesterday in a 12 man tourney, back to back 'wins' is awesome, especially with a deck deemed dead by many. I ran the Relic/War Marshal list again and the War Marshals were relevant but the Relics werent all that awesome. Still, they never hindered me as I boarded them out G2 a lot.
I went 2-1-1 in the swiss (took a risky ID in round 4 which I likely should have just played out). Cut was to Top 4. R1: Merfolk 2-0, R2: Combo 2-1 (should have mulled into aggressive hands more, this is key to beating combo, still it was close as he was on 2 when he still flipped with Ad Naus), R3: 4C CB/Top piloted by my buddy Rick 2-0, very exciting g1 in which Rick definately pulled some very nice plays but we both made a few mistakes his being more costly than mine in the end, G2 was a lot more easy. R4: ID. 2 players on 9 points, they drew in. 3 players with 6 points, me and my opponent and a Loam player. The reason we IDed was that he was paired against combo and we saw them shuffling up for game 2 before we were even seated. Loam lost 2-1 eventually and in the fun games we played I smashed him 2-0 (both preboard with him on the play) because he made a slight misplay game 2 which I punished HARD with a maindecked Boartusk Liege finishing him off.
Top 4:
Semis: the ANT player again, this time I mulled VERY aggressively and that paid off as I killed him on turn 4 with multiple Pileys + Lackey and a Wasteland in the mix. G2: He Duressed my Chalice, leaving me with a pretty bad hand, I played Vial and another one the following turn. He kept drawing blanks and on my turn 3 I played Matron searched for Piley and put it into play through Vial. Next turn I played Ringleader to put him on low life, I found a War Marshal and a Warchief which I both gladly put into play. He was at one and played Ad Naus next turn and died to a flipped Ill Gotten Gains.
Finals: I had some stuff to do so I asked him if he wanted to split, he was Landstill. My SB wasnt finished and I lacked 2 Boartusk Lieges and 2 Anarchies so I wasnt too unhappy to split even though I think if I had all the cards I would have a much better matchup.
So we split, I got a Badlands and a Taiga + 5 Reborn packs and he got a Goyf + 5 Reborn packs + 2 Deeds I threw in (not sure if this was a good trade but who cares).
Once again Goblins is proving to be a top contender, the manadisruption was invaluable and I seriously cant understand why you would want to cut Port. Aggressive mulliganning against combo in combination with 4 Chalice and 4 REBs makes the matchup very winnable, Port and especially Waste help too (keep hands with Wasteland against combo!). This tournament I am 3-2 against combo and while my opponent complained about bad draws I think the matchup is very even with my sideboard.
Nice job Mantis, keep the goblin flag up! :D
Hello friend.
I just searched this thread and was surprised to see Mogg Flunkies mentioned only two times with no real discussion about them. As of lately I've been thinking what monored could use to stop Tarmogoyf and the logical answer was Relic, but I disliked it because it was dead in half of the matchups. However, I really like Mogg Flunkies. With a build with Vial as the only noncreature card, the Flunkies are rarely left alone. When the only 1/1s in the deck are Matron and Lackey, there is a really high percentage of having a 2/2 alongside him to block and kill Goyf. Plus he survives Clasm and excels with a Plagues on the table. My testing has shown that he really gives the upper hand in the Tempo Thresh match. Also fits the curve nicely. Hasn't anyone really tried him? Or am I missing something?
The Goblin deck usually isn't too concerned about blocking Goyf. It wants to attack through him. A 3/3 for two that can only sometimes attack or block is pretty underwhelming. If you want to run a bigger goblin, I recommend Earwig Squad, which costs only one mana more than Flunkies (with the prowl cost), is +2 on the power and comes with a useful ability.
I usually don't play goblin but while we are at it, what do you guys think of ye olde Goblin Goon. I saw someone playing it and I was pretty impressed.
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity - Seneca, Roman dramatist
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