I think Zoo's rise to power is the reason this deck is no longer a deck to beat.
Stupid Zoo :(Originally Posted by Carabas
Makes me sad inside to see black suicide decks on hard times (I love to play Eva as well).
This deck seems really cool, but I don't see how it lives off of 8 threats when 4 of them (the tombstalkers) are significantly difficult to cast in multiples. I guess its the Brainstorms and Ponders that help you find them... Its just that I play Eva Green with 15 threats and targeted discard on their removal, and I still find it really difficult to keeps threats on the board against certain decks.
Well, Eva doesn't have cantrip or counter. Also, you normally only have instants, sorceries and lands in your yard (lots of multiples), so the interaction between Goyf and Stalker isn't as bad as you think. It's the stuff in the opponents yard that pumps Goyf. In sum, they aren't mutually exclusive.
Deed is usually pretty good against the aggro decks. Gets rid of c-balance, dreadnoughts, standstills.
The lone thoughtseize was just for something better than a lone Terravore I had in there. I might change it back.
Unfortunately, there is almost no way to make the Red Burn/Zoo/Merfolk matchup better it seems
Well I agree with the goyf/tombstalker thing; that's not what I was referring to.
Casting more than 1 Tombstalker in a game is often difficult until you reach the really late stages of the game. If you never see a goyf, you're really only gonna have 1 threat maximum for quite a while.
One single Stalker is eventually enough to seal the deal with all the tempooriented and disruptive play.
Yeah I totally misread that. On a related note I scrubbed out today with TA going 1-3 versus two (yes, two) Affinity, Goyfsligh, and Probasco Thresh, where I punted by letting a Shackles resolve and he took my Tombstalker that was swinging in for lethal, and drew no-land-hands like it's my job. I learned that 2 Land + 2 Snuff Out deserves mulling to 3 versus Goyfsligh. I'm thinking Hydroblasts in the SB is probably necessary....
I'm also thinking about cutting down the number of Sinkholes. They've felt subpar most games and clogged up my hand too often. I'd want to replace them with Spell Snare, which was great every time I saw it, or maybe another creature like Clique or Trygon.
Edit:
Here's what my deck looks like now after recent changes:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Snuff Out
2 Spell Snare
2 Thoughtseize
3 Sinkhole
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
3 Hydroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
Last edited by keys; 06-23-2009 at 11:42 PM.
I'm putting together a list of SB plans for common matchups. I'm using the SB in the post above. Thoughts?
CounterTop
-4 Daze (on the draw) or -4 Stifle (on the play)
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Thoughtseize
Landstill/Dreadstill
-3 Daze
-3 Sinkhole
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Engineered Explosives
Merfolk
-4 Daze (on the draw) or -4 Stifle (on the play)
-3 Sinkhole
+4 Engineered Plague
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Engineered Explosives
Tempo Thresh
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
+2 Edict
+1 Engineered Explosives
Goyfsligh/Zoo
-4 Daze (on the draw) or -4 Stifle (on the play)
-2 Thoughtseize
+3 Hydroblast
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Engineered Explosives
Goblins
-4 Stifle
-3 Sinkhole
-2 Spell Snare
-1 Vendilion Clique
+4 Engineered Plague
+3 Hydroblast
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Engineered Explosives
Ichorid
-3 Snuff Out
-2 Spell Snare
-2 Thoughtseize
+4 Engineered Plague
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Engineered Explosives
Storm Combo
-4 Snuff Out
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Bloodstained Mire
+3 Hydroblast
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Engineered Explosives
Eva Green
-3 Sinkhole
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Engineered Explosives
Dragon Stompy
-4 Stifle
-2 Spell Snare
-1 Thoughtseize
+3 Hydroblast
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Engineered Explosives
Aggro Loam
-3 Daze
-3 Sinkhole
+3 Hydroblast
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Engineered Explosives
Last edited by keys; 06-27-2009 at 02:07 PM.
I would actually keep the Stifles in on the play. Countertop likes to run 6-8 fetchlands, so Stifle either denies them mana whatsoever (if they play a fetch and you Stifle it) or denies them mana quality (if they play a land of a color they don't really want to avoid having a fetch Stifled). I'd actually take out the maindeck Thoughtseizes instead, Krosan Grip should be plenty, I'd think.
keys i really question your decision of cutting a Ponder and a Sinkhole from the deck.
About Ponder:
Bs and Ponder is one of the great advantages this deck has over Eva Green, its basically the TA's engine, by helping you finding threats and answers.
Often you nuke down your enemy, but you struggle to finish him off - Ponder helps you to find the nail in the coffin, which is especially important with only 8 beaters in the deck.
Also its an amazing topdeck, by letting you see 4 cards immediately.
Before cutting a Sinkhole, you should ask yourself if a deck that relies heavily on landestruction is viable in your meta. If yes then roll with TA and keep in mind that you want to see the maximum amount of ld effects in some matchups.
I think you cant water down this approach, its basically all or nothing. If you weaken the ld package, then you may struggle in the matchups were it is supposed to be good. I hope i could make myself clear with this.
Issues that should be addressed are, manabase, blue count and heavy strains on your life total.
For the first point i see no solution currently.
If i would make changes to the deck, i would start with cutting a Thoughtseize like you did. Three is fine, because it gets weaker as the game progresses and against aggresive decks you dont want to cast two in one game most of the time.
Clique seems like a good replacement, it ups your blue count, disrupts and beats!
Another card that could be cut to three is Stifle, its less vital to your landestruction theme, because its more situational. I almost never disliked to have Stifle in hand, but maybe there stronger options.
BBB
I don't think Daze is very good versus Landstill after game 1. They'll just slow play once they know you're packing, and Sinkhole is kinda weak when they have so many lands + Crucible. What would you take out instead? I'd much rather leave Stifle in since it counters Deed, EE, DoJ, planeswalker ultimates, random Factory activations, and can still trip a fetch if you're lucky.
I see the rest of your points, though.
Regarding the maindeck list, I've just had a lot of success with Spell Snare, and the deck needs more blue spells. I don't think TA should be piloted like an LD deck. The LD here is used to punish opponents that take 1/2-land hands. Stifle and Wasteland are both fast and versatile, and I'm never unhappy to see them, but Sinkhole can be a really bad topdeck and it just isn't nearly as fast without Ritual to fuel broken plays with it as in Eva and traditional suicide.
Though it varies a lot with format, Sinkhole almost always comes out on the draw. Stifle never comes out. Snuff out comes out sometimes too depending on match up.
Daze never comes out. If they slow play landstill then you are probably going to win
After more testing, I've gone back up to 4 Sinkhole, 4 Ponder, cut the Vendilion Clique and remaining Thoughtseizes, and added a second Maelstrom Pulse. Effectively, I'm back to the generic TA decklist -4 Thoughtseize, +2 Spell Snare, +2 Pulse. The split might end up becoming 3/1 and/or include P.Deed or Trygon Predator.
The problem I've realized with thoughseize is that it really only improves the matchups that are already favorable (i.e. Combo/Control). As others have noted, the card also contributes toward two central weaknesses: low blue count and excessive life loss. Replacing thoughtseize with Spell Snare/Pulse (a) increases blue count, and (b) gives you answers to resolved permanents without the life loss. Both are significantly more effective against TA's worst matchups, e.g. Goyfsligh, Zoo, and other aggro/aggro-control.
Pulse has never disappointed me as a catch-all emergency button or just removal 5-6. It serves a similar purpose to the two bounce slots in Tempo Thresh. Having outs against threats ranging from resolved Chalice(s) (frequent problem) to a horde of Zombie Tokens (niche use) can be a game saver.
@Stu55: I still have to try out Deed, but the reasons I prefer Pulse on paper are simply that (a) Goyf doesn't regenerate, (b) it can't be stifled, and (c) it's a turn faster. It might at the very least be a better SB card than EE.
Last edited by keys; 06-30-2009 at 04:56 PM.
Those 2 spots honestly need to be cards that are fantastic against the Zoo match up...the biggest problem
Pulse might not be as fantastic as Deed in the Zoo matchup, but removing Thoughtseize is still a step toward improving it.
I do like that it can hit Chalices and tokens for 1BG in addition to working as a sweeper. It's just harder to hit Smokestack, Shackles, walkers, and other random things that slip by. So many blue decks have Stifle for it, plus Zoo decks can shut it down with Pithing Needle and/or Krosan Grip post-SB.
Deed/EE just seems more like a SB option to me.
You forgot to add that those are usually my Chalices you're blowing up
has anyone ever conciderd "disrupt" in the sb, at the next tourney i'am going to play, will be al lot zoo/sligh, plus a few landstill and tempo decks (eva and ta).
the ls guys their use to play 3 path between mb/sb, to improve their mus vs the tempo decks and zoo.
i wasn't able to perform valid testing, because of written exams at university, but the few games i made vs. eva and zoo/sligh were quite nice.
boarding plans are:
zoo/sligh:
out:4 sinkhole, 4 daze (daze sucks vs. aggro decks)
in:4 hydroblast, 4 disrupt
stifle counters crypts and the stifle/waste plan is quite solid against a deck with 18/19 lands, whoose cards (fireblast, nacatl, ape) depend on duals.
eva:
out: 4 snuff out (they only hit goyf, but i am not really sure bout this, maybe any split with 1-2 snuff out and some other/random cards would be better)
in: 4 disrupt
landstill:
out: 4 snuff out
in: 4 disrupt (hits stp, bs, and pte)
I just question how often you can reliably counter these 1-mana spells with Disrupt.
My SB has evolved into this:
4 Hydroblast
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Open - Currently considering: Submerge, Disrupt, Divert, Perish, Thoughtseize (I don't play them maindeck), Threads of Disloyalty, and/or additional Crypts. So there are plenty of options:
Threads/Perish provide a couple more tools against Zoo, Eva, Tempo Thresh, Coatl Gro, and Elves/Progenitus. That's probably too many 3cc spells, unfortunately. More of a curve would be nice, although one can always argue it dodges CB/Top.
Divert is great vs Burn/Sligh, Eva, and Combo (yep-- duress, chant), but it's obviously situational. Disrupt is similar, but not as narrow.
I like Submerge a lot, but TA already has so much targeted removal that it feels like overkill to include it. As free tempo it is amazing though.
Lastly, has anyone considered Dreadnought/Trickbind in the SB? I'm not sure it's any better than the other anti-aggro options-- and it's obviously more fragile-- but it's an interesting concept. It would only take up 6 spots, max.
Edit: I just went through the thread, looks like it was tested before, though I don't see any explanation of how it did and why it was dropped.
Last edited by keys; 07-06-2009 at 07:37 PM.
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