How Humility Works

[cdr]

1) No. The ability triggers in play, and it has no abilities in play.

2) No, again.

3) No. "Leaves play" triggers trigger from in play, just like "comes into play". It "just dies".

4a) No.
4c) No.

b is irrelevant, since phasing doesn't trigger "comes into play" or "leaves play" anyway.

I'm not sure where your understanding is lacking, unfortunately. Feel free to ask more general questions so you can hopefully figure out the underlying rules.

OK, this thread is full of questions correct answers (and some maybe correct answers???).

I have questions to doubly clarify:

1 When an eternal witness comes into play do you get to return a card from your graveyard to your hand?

2 When a kitchen finks comes into play do you gain 2 life? (I suppose if 1 is answered then this will be answered as well.)

3 How about when a finks is sent to the graveyard under humility is it just plain dead? Does it come back as a 1/1 with a -1/-1 counter? Or does it persist and create a weird unresolvable gamestate?

4. Do the answers to questions 1-3 change if the creatures:
a. is slid out via Astral Slide,
b. phases in via some weird mirage effect
c. is vialed or pipered in

Thanks

[dahcmai]

Here's a question I know I will run into. I do know how Humility works (I've had to study a lot for it), but if I call a judge during this Chicago Grand Prix that obviously doesn't know how it works, what do I do then? Do I have to call the head judge or is that practical? Do I have a recourse if they are flat wrong, I know it, and can even quote the rule and layer?

It makes a difference since I will be packing Humilities there. I'm sure it's going to come up a lot with me playing Mishra's, Elspeth, and other people playing Magus, Wonder, and Painters. I'm sure someone will call that judge at least once.

People usually ask me about weird rulings like that so I'm not used to having to rely on someone else for a ruling on a card as confusing as Humility. I rarely play in larger events.

[MULocke]

Here's a question I know I will run into. I do know how Humility works (I've had to study a lot for it), but if I call a judge during this Chicago Grand Prix that obviously doesn't know how it works, what do I do then? Do I have to call the head judge or is that practical? Do I have a recourse if they are flat wrong, I know it, and can even quote the rule and layer?

It makes a difference since I will be packing Humilities there. I'm sure it's going to come up a lot with me playing Mishra's, Elspeth, and other people playing Magus, Wonder, and Painters. I'm sure someone will call that judge at least once.

People usually ask me about weird rulings like that so I'm not used to having to rely on someone else for a ruling on a card as confusing as Humility. I rarely play in larger events.

Just like you should never feel bad and avoid calling a judge, don't feel bad about appealing a ruling. Judges are human, and they make mistakes sometimes (especially with a non-mainstream format and a much less popular deck/interaction). It can't hurt to quite the exact rule/layer, but I won't guarantee it will help.

[KrzyMoose]

Here's a question I know I will run into. I do know how Humility works (I've had to study a lot for it), but if I call a judge during this Chicago Grand Prix that obviously doesn't know how it works, what do I do then? Do I have to call the head judge or is that practical? Do I have a recourse if they are flat wrong, I know it, and can even quote the rule and layer?

If you do not agree with a judge's ruling you can (and should) appeal to the head judge. You will be given a time extension. Note that the head judge's ruling is final.

However, if a judge doesn't know the proper ruling, he will (or, at least, should) consult with other judges and get the proper ruling. (Then, obviously, if you disagree with it, you can appeal).

[DireLemming]

Here's a question I know I will run into. I do know how Humility works (I've had to study a lot for it), but if I call a judge during this Chicago Grand Prix that obviously doesn't know how it works, what do I do then? Do I have to call the head judge or is that practical? Do I have a recourse if they are flat wrong, I know it, and can even quote the rule and layer?

It makes a difference since I will be packing Humilities there. I'm sure it's going to come up a lot with me playing Mishra's, Elspeth, and other people playing Magus, Wonder, and Painters. I'm sure someone will call that judge at least once.

People usually ask me about weird rulings like that so I'm not used to having to rely on someone else for a ruling on a card as confusing as Humility. I rarely play in larger events.

It can't hurt if you have a copy of Comprehensive Rules (with problematic sections marked so you can find them quickly) with you. Not so much to correct the judges but rather to save time.

[Aggro_zombies]

Just to confirm my suspicions: if I have a Humility and a Factory (not animated), and my opponent has Progenitus (or DSC), will Progenitus go to the graveyard if I animate my Factory and block it (or kill it any other way)?

I'm thinking that the replacement effect falls in layer five and therefore doesn't exist anymore thanks to Progenitus being humble. It won't check after Progenitus is already deceased, so he'll just chill in the 'yard at that point, right?

[cdr]

You are right. The key thing is that Progenitus has a static ability that creates a replacement effect, so it has to have that ability for the replacement effect to apply when it changes zones.

If it were a triggered ability, like the Incarnations from Lorwyn, it would trigger from the graveyard and therefore "get around" Humility.

Abilities that trigger specifically on going to the graveyard, like Alabaster Dragon's, trigger from in play, so those abilities will not trigger.

Just to confirm my suspicions: if I have a Humility and a Factory (not animated), and my opponent has Progenitus (or DSC), will Progenitus go to the graveyard if I animate my Factory and block it (or kill it any other way)?

I'm thinking that the replacement effect falls in layer five and therefore doesn't exist anymore thanks to Progenitus being humble. It won't check after Progenitus is already deceased, so he'll just chill in the 'yard at that point, right?

[eq.firemind]

Hey people, how Humility interacts with Unearth ability?
As I understood, I'll get 1/1 creature with no CiP abilities and no haste (that's the clear part), but it will go RFG EoT because this effect is created by Unearth ability (means from graveyard) and with Unearth wording, RFGtrigger is not creature's ability (so Humility will not remove it).

Thanks

[Skeggi]

Part of Unearth's ruling:

502.84.Ruling.4 - Removing abilities from the creature will remove Haste, but the replacement and delayed triggers that remove it from the game are not abilities of the creature and cannot be removed. [Shards of Alara FAQ 2008/09/23]

In other words: you understood correct.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

This came up on MWS and I was pretty sure I was right. If there's a creature (I had Lorescale Coatl) that has +1/+1 counters on it, does humility bring it down to a 1/1 no matter how many counters are on it?

I'm pretty sure it'll be a 1/1 then get the bonus for the counters but just want to make sure.

[heroicraptor]

You're correct. Humility is applied in 6b, counters are applied in 6c.

[mossivo1986]

With elspeth's final ability resolved on my board as well as humility and a couple of soldiers my creatures remain indestructable even with humility in play correct?

[heroicraptor]

Correct. Elspeth's final ability modifies the rules of the game as far as your artifacts, creatures, enchantments, and lands are concerned.

[Aggro_zombies]

Okay, so let's say I have a Tidehollow Sculler (or Mesmeric Fiend in play), and there's a card removed from the game by it. My opponent then drops Humility. What happens to the removed card in the following scenarios?

1) Sculler/Fiend leaves play while Humility is still in play.
2) Humility is somehow destroyed, and Sculler/Fiend subsequently leaves play.

If I'm doing this right, in the first case the opponent doesn't ever get his card back. In the second case, the opponent gets his card back, right?

Just looking to confirm this.

[Van Phanel]

*Confirm

[Taurelin]

With the release of M10, the new comprehensive rules contain a revision of the layer-system, thus affecting several Humility-interactions:

612.1a Layer 1: Copy effects are applied. See rule 706, “Copying Objects.”
612.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
612.1c Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 611, “Text-Changing Effects.”
612.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. This includes effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype.
612.1e Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.
612.1f Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.
612.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.


612.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities are applied. See rule 604.3.
612.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.
612.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.
612.3d Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied. See rule 120.
612.3e Layer 7e: Effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness are applied. Such effects take the value of power and apply it to the creature’s toughness, and take the value of toughness and apply it to the creature’s power.

Some examples of new interactions:

- Painter's Servant is no longer shut down by Humility, because its effect applies in an earlier layer than Humility (similar to Magus of the Moon).

- Giant Growth now lies in the same layer as Glorious Anthem, so it will always apply independently from any considerations about timestamps.

[Anusien]

Giant Growth and Glorious Anthem never affected each other.

[Taurelin]

Giant Growth and Glorious Anthem never affected each other.

That's true, but that's not the point.

The point is, that Glorious Anthem has always been in a different layer than Humility, while Giant Growth used to be in the same layer as Humility, thus being affected by timestamp and the like.

Example (old rules):
a) 2/2 Creature in play, first Humility enters play, then Giant Growth is played.
-> 4/4 due to timestamp rule
b) 2/2 Creature in play, first Giant Growth is played, then Humility enters play.
-> 1/1 due to timestamp rule


Now Giant Growth is in the same layer as Glorious Anthem and works similarly.

[heroicraptor]

That's true, but that's not the point.

The point is, that Glorious Anthem has always been in a different layer than Humility, while Giant Growth used to be in the same layer as Humility, thus being affected by timestamp and the like.

The way you said it, it sounded like you thought it did.

[Anusien]

Yes, Humility and Giant Growth's interaction changed. Glorious Anthem and Giant Growth's interaction did not. That was what I was pointing out.