[Deck] Dredge

[kicks_422]

I remember Parcher. He's the guy who's coming in with all the innovations with this deck.

andrew77... Who are you again?

Anyway... I'm loving Gargadon. Such great tech... Why play anti-hate when you can just play through it? Nice inclusion.

[1maarten1]

Agreed last 2. I know Parcher as the guy with the awesome lists i always netdecked and the awesome new ideas for the deck. What did you do? trashtalk on people?

~Maarten

[Parcher]

Enough.

I've placed this cat on ignore, since he's now obviously just trolling. No real opponents I've seen are clueless enough to enable these fanciful scenarios.. My lists and wins with this deck speak for themselves. If you don't like my ideas on the deck, don't use them. If you don't like the way I suggest to play the deck, feel free to continue losing. But arguing with a idiot wastes your time, and annoys the idiot. Let him stew in his own rotten little pissed-out world.

[GoldenCid]

I'm considering going back to the 11 lands mana base (3 city, 3 Coliseum, 4 Mine and 1 paradise). I'd like not to cover the free slot with a singleton. I'm considering running the 4th Thug or the 4th unmask main deck.
Thoughts??

[Parcher]

Unmask is at it's best turn one, and running the max increases the chance of this; especially game three where it can yank hate before it's played. They suck to dredge though, and are usually pulled for game two.

A third Dread Return increases the odds of an early win if you get to go off turns 1-3. It also adds redundancy if games go long.

The twelfth dredger I've found is a wash. The times where that fourth Thug is your only dredger in your opening hand, are somewhat mitigated by the times you open a hand with four dredgers, and no action.

Pick your poison.

[1maarten1]

Im using the 4th unmask MD, and its working really well for me. But i can also see that some people want the third DR in this spot. Its just a personal choice i think

~Maarten

[GoldenCid]

Im using the 4th unmask MD, and its working really well for me. But i can also see that some people want the third DR in this spot. Its just a personal choice i think

~Maarten

I'm testing this option now. Thug liked me because is an easy hard cast and dredger. Beside its ability of retrieving moebas is owesome.

[NecroYawgmoth]

I am playing the 3rd DR un the random-slot, and I think I would never change it... you can do some broken Witness-Actions with it, and in some long games, I just needed to double or triple DR to win the game now, and not 5 turns later or so...

@ Parcher and all the others: Don't you think the Nr. 3 is closer to the optimum than 2?

Unmask is... dunno, I don't like this card, but I see the reasons why it's good and play it myself, but I think it's the suboptimalest card in the deck besides DA.

sometimes I played 2 Firestorms and 1 reanimate-target in the Unmask slots, and it was pretty good, I really thnk the Unmask aren't the best solution for this slots, but I don't know what could be better... :(

...and the 12th Dredger is unnecessary IMO, and he dredges only for 4, so he isn't needed.


YawG

[indefinite.soul]

Well, I always though that the 3rd Dread Return and a 3rd Dread Return target (specially Empyrial Archangel) is great. But I just assumed that Parcher is a better player than me, then I run only 2 of both. xD

As I PMed Parcher, I am considering to change the 3 MD Unmask for 3 Careful Study, cause I think I am not being able to buy good hands normally (maybe cause I can not figure which is good which is not - I am following the "Draw Discard Land Dredge idea).

How do you guys shuffle your Ichorid deck?

Thanks.

[jimirynk]

Archangel either turns out to be winmore if you have board position and if you don't have board it usually turns out to be a timewalk.

[GoldenCid]

Although a 3rd target for reanimation is confortable it is proben that it is not really necesary except for specifical metagames.

[Muradin]

I got a couple of sample hands for you guys where I've always been unsure whether to keep those or to mulligan.

Ichorid
Golgari Grave Troll
Lions Eye Diamond
Gemstone Mine
Flamekin Zealot
Deep Analysis
Dread Return

Would you keep this kind of hand on the play / draw and if you don't know what your opponent is playing / he is playing aggro/control?
I personally would only keep it if I know my opponent is running a rather slow deck. I'd go draw discard dredge once if I see an Island and then speed things up with LED + Analysis backed up with a Therapy. But against an unknown opponent this kind of opener would be quite risky as even Merfolk might race you if they get a good start, perhaps with a Jitte.

What are you going to do with something like this?

2 Breakthrough
1 Lions Eye Diamond
1 Unmask
1 Golgari Thug
1 Stinkweed imp
1 Ichorid

I am always reluctant towards those no landers but on the other hand you can unmask your opponent and use your LED to discard your hand with 2 dredgers in it to start going. I'd probably mull this away in any case, but what would be your choice when you're on the play / draw...

Finally, what do you do with hands that are like:

1 Breakthrough
2-3 Dredgers
1 Land
Rest stuff like Narcomoeba, Bridge, Dread Returns... but it's 7 cards

You can go DDD and then speed things up with your Breakthrough as soon as you hit a dredger but this might be too slow against Zoo, Elves, Combo and so forth. Again, what's your choice on the draw/play against an unknown opponent?

[Skeggi]

Ichorid
Golgari Grave Troll
Lions Eye Diamond
Gemstone Mine
Flamekin Zealot
Deep Analysis
Dread Return

I'm very new at this so please anyone correct me if my thoughts are wrong. The obvious play with this hand seems: Mine, LED, crack LED, flasback Deep Analysis, Dredge Troll, and depending on whether you dredge another dredger, dregde some more. I don't see how this is good; after this you're stuck with 2 Dredgers in your hand which you can't get rid off. So you could decide to not dredge the second draw even if you did get the dredger, and just hope you get a Pimp? So I wouldn't keep this hand in any case. Also not for the scenario you pictured.

But that's my main problem. Ever since I'm playing with Ichorid in about 30% of the games I end up with a bunch of Dredgers in my hand. Anyone know what I'm doing wrong? I must be making some common rookie mistake.

PImp seems to be so utterly important I don't see anything that does this job that well. Breakthrough is pretty broken, I love that card, but even then you can run dry. LED doesn't cut it as a discard outlet and neither does Colliseum. They're both very good and important, but often they just lack the raw whenever-you-need discard power.

So, when should I dredge and when should I draw? In my games I usually tend to dredge as much as possible and see where it takes me, but as said before, I end up with a bunch of dredgers in my hand I can't get rid off...

2 Breakthrough
1 Lions Eye Diamond
1 Unmask
1 Golgari Thug
1 Stinkweed imp
1 Ichorid

I am always reluctant towards those no landers but on the other hand you can unmask your opponent and use your LED to discard your hand with 2 dredgers in it to start going. I'd probably mull this away in any case, but what would be your choice when you're on the play / draw...

This seems like a waste of the Breakthroughs if you keep this... perhaps draw/go and discard the dredgers hoping to get a land?

[GoldenCid]

I got a couple of sample hands for you guys where I've always been unsure whether to keep those or to mulligan.

Ichorid
Golgari Grave Troll
Lions Eye Diamond
Gemstone Mine
Flamekin Zealot
Deep Analysis
Dread Return

Mmm...i see this hand a bit weak. Although i looks good at first glance, our land is not a colisseum which stop our combo engine. I think i'd mull.

2 Breakthrough
1 Lions Eye Diamond
1 Unmask
1 Golgari Thug
1 Stinkweed imp
1 Ichorid

I'd mull it. No lands, and unmask on ichorid or a dredger is not so good.

1 Breakthrough
2-3 Dredgers
1 Land
Rest stuff like Narcomoeba, Bridge, Dread Returns... but it's 7 cards

Just keep. At worst you can discard at you EoT and explode the breakthough with any dredger in yard.

[Tacosnape]

The problem with the first hand listed is that it loses horribly to Force of Will on the play and Duress/Thoughtseize on the draw. Your LED -has- to resolve cleanly or you're going to lose.

On the second hand, your two Breakthroughs are dead and will be for the whole game. Therefore you'd be virtually keeping a five card hand. A slow five card hand. Therefore there's no reason not to mulligan it to six.

[Kuma]

I got a couple of sample hands for you guys where I've always been unsure whether to keep those or to mulligan.

Ichorid
Golgari Grave Troll
Lions Eye Diamond
Gemstone Mine
Flamekin Zealot
Deep Analysis
Dread Return

Would you keep this kind of hand on the play / draw and if you don't know what your opponent is playing / he is playing aggro/control?

I'd keep this on the draw versus aggro-control since you can DDD and you have some acceleration and useful pieces in your hand.

I'd also keep it on the play since they'll lose this game without Force of Will unless you get horrible dredges. You have mana, a dredger, a discard outlet and a draw spell. You should win this.

Since this hand has all four pieces for the combo, I'd keep it versus an unknown opponent on the play or draw. You aren't going to get many better six card hands.

It may not race Merfolk/Zoo, but it has a decent chance to and you're probably not getting a faster hand by mulling.

What are you going to do with something like this?

2 Breakthrough
1 Lions Eye Diamond
1 Unmask
1 Golgari Thug
1 Stinkweed imp
1 Ichorid

I am always reluctant towards those no landers but on the other hand you can unmask your opponent and use your LED to discard your hand with 2 dredgers in it to start going. I'd probably mull this away in any case, but what would be your choice when you're on the play / draw...

I kept a hand like this once and lost because my opponent had double Force of Will.

I keep this on the draw because it becomes ridiculous if you draw a land, and you can DDD if they show you blue.

On the play, this hand pretty much guarantees you two dredges, but it's slow. Keep that in mind when you make the decision. It's probably not worth keeping on the play against an unknown opponent.

Finally, what do you do with hands that are like:

1 Breakthrough
2-3 Dredgers
1 Land
Rest stuff like Narcomoeba, Bridge, Dread Returns... but it's 7 cards

You can go DDD and then speed things up with your Breakthrough as soon as you hit a dredger but this might be too slow against Zoo, Elves, Combo and so forth. Again, what's your choice on the draw/play against an unknown opponent?

This hand will do against aggro-control as you can DDD and try to speed it up with a Breakthrough. It also becomes insane if you draw a discard outlet, especially Lion's Eye Diamond.

I probably mull this against combo on the play, since you usually either need a speed hand or some form of discard to beat them.

Any non-combo hand might be too slow against Aggro. But trying to mull into the combo is suicide. It depends what's in your hand besides Breakthrough and dredgers, but that has a chance on the draw with some decent dredges and/or a nuts draw. On the play I'm a little less optimistic.

[Meister_Kai]

Hey, I just recently took a liking to this deck and wanted to know a little more about it. Most of this I guess is ruling questions, but since this is the thread for this decklist i'll ask them here instead of spamming the rules place with a million questions.

First, in how many ways can dredgers interact with breakthrough? Can you cast breakthrough, dredge 6 with a troll in the yard, discard troll with pimp, and keep dredging with troll?

I realize this deck can win on turn one, but on average what turn does this deck pull off the win games 2/3, or any game without LED?

Is there some hardcore in-depth explaination about all things ichorid deck? I know there is a starcity article or two about vintage that are both premium (can't read those obviously) so any point in the right direction would be awesome.

Thanks for any help.

[Roman Candle]

First, in how many ways can dredgers interact with breakthrough? Can you cast breakthrough, dredge 6 with a troll in the yard, discard troll with pimp, and keep dredging with troll?

No. Breakthrough has to finish resolving before you can use Imp. However, you can dredge a different dredger, even one dredged to the grave by Troll.

[GoldenCid]

I'm probably going to play dredge this weekend and i know that there is another dredge in the metagame which is doing it good. Considering the posibility of a mirror match which would you think is the best sideboarding??
I was thinking in the idea of not diluting the strategy but i believe that this guy runs line in his SB:

-4 Unmask
-2 LED
+3 CoV
+3 GG

Would be right for you??
Other thoughs??

[alderon666]

Won a 34 players championship this weekend.

The list is here.

I play Woodfall Primus and Cephalid Sage because I need answers to random shit game 1 and Sage always seemed more straightforward "win now" unlike Eternal Witness. Woodfall is great with bridges and sometimes I just won by destroying all lands my opponent had while keeping a 5/5 trample and a couple 2/2's.

The sideboard is rather random, looking back it looks too diluted. Never got to test the Greater Gargadon thing, so didn't play it.

Not gonna do a full report, but the deck played smoothly mulliganing to oblivion just 1 or 2 times. Had 1 turn first turn kill, but the average was 2 or 3. Had some dragged out games but for those mostly I had disruption.

Unmask on game 3 is bonkers! Won me the finals all by itself. Unmask for Brainstorm seeing 2 Tormod's Crypt and then Cabal Therapy for the win.

I just love careful study. I does too much, even tough sometimes it leads to bas mulligan decisions. It just drew me a bunch of good stuff throughout the whole tournment, turning ok hands into "I win next turn" hands. Found me some sideboard cards, and is great against countermagic as it is just another solo threat unlike Breakthrough.

Played against all kinds of decks. White weenie, WW with green, Enchantress, Merfolk, Canadian Thresh, BW control, Aggro Loam, Goyf Sligh. Some matches I just felt dirty because they were just so easy, on others my opponents just mulliganed into oblivion trying to find the hate. Got my graveyard removed just 3 times I think. And as you can see Unmask maindeck doesn't seem that good as the meta isn't blue/comboish enough, raw speed just seems like the better way to go.