[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

[emidln]

The best pile I can come up with Mirror requires a 2nd Draw (probably Meditate #2 or Leyline/Planar Void/your opponent being kind enough to Crypt/Relic you post-Meditate), but it would be something like this:

Meditate, Rain of Filth, Lion's Eye Diamond, Sensei's Divining Top, Mirror of Fate

This requires 3UB from 5 lands and plays out like this:

Doomsday for these cards and pass. Untap, draw Meditate. Meditate into your four cards. Play Rain of Filth (1 land available). Tap the land for for mana and then sac your 5 lands (6 mana available). Play SDT. Play LED. Play Mirror of fate and activate for:

Meditate, Petal, LED, LED, win condition of choice/IGG, irrelevant cards/win condition

You then break LED to SDT into Meditate and cast it. Where you go through the motions of playing accel into SDT which can get you IGG if you need to inflate storm (and there are no forces to worry about) or just something like Tendrils. You could also put another SDT there and top into top, play top #2, pay 1 and rearrange to put Tendrils on Top, and win from there.

If you can make another 4 mana, you can afford to put Chant/Duress in there somewhere (from more lands off rain of filth, or maybe Dark Rit or LED). There is a lot of design space using rain of filth and double Meditate, but drawing Mirror of Fate would be fucking terrible. God forbid that ever happens. It would probably love me more than IGG, so I'll never run it, but if you feel the need for ultra-complex pass the turn piles, I guess it fits the bill.

Edit: You can cheat mana on this pile using LED if you stack the pile differently. You can put SDT, Meditate, Rain of Filth, LED, Mirror. The difference is that you draw and play SDT and then pay for Meditate with LED. That means you might be to do something like use Dark Ritual instead of Rain of Filth to pay for Mirror. That would take 4B. This lets you do it with Dark Ritual in hand and LED, and two lands in play when you pass the turn.

For anyone that cares, I'll be playing this list +/- like 2-3 cards for awhile:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Orim's Chant
4 Silence
1 Wipe Away
1 Krosan Grip
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

I'm currently playing with the 4th Ponder, the 7th and 8th chant effects, and the Rain of Filth. In these slots, I've been testing, amongst other things:

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Isochron Scepter
1-2 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
1 Rushing River
1 Engineered Explosives
1-2 Cabal Ritual
1-2 Infernal Tutor

I'm not entirely sure on Isochron's Scepter's usefulness. Obviously you want the random scepter chant locks in game 1 and then board it out. I'm just not sure that you'd ever ETutor for this over SDT or LED. Chantwalks with 8 chants in the upkeep seem to be good enough to buy time vs aggro. If they can't play spells, they don't have creatures, and thus can't kill you. Cabal Rits and/or Infernal Tutors increase the goldfish speed. Rushing River is just another way to handle stuff like Chalice @ 1. EE is the same that is also pretty adept at killing CB or stopping multiple Goyfs to buy time. ETutor has two main targets, the LED and SDT that I mentioned already. It's seeming to be the best addition of the lot, although I'll be testing the rest in depth.

I'm probably going to play Cabal Rits, Infernal Tutors, Extirpate, Helm, Grapeshot, Serenity, more KGrips, any extra chant effects I don't maindeck, and ETruth + Rushing River in the sb.

I would have gone for the last option which was IGG into Chant/Duress/Meditate and slow-played it after Duressing his bomb. We play more cantrips and take less mana to win if he has to go for Infernal Tutor.

As for the Duress situation, it's unconditionally Ad Nauseam. He doesn't have Threshold (or anything close) so Infernal Tutor is worthless as it will take at least 7 mana to make it useful (he's short 4).

The pass the turn pile (which no longer works well due to the rules) is:

Meditate
LED
LED
Burning Wish
Burning Wish

You Meditate into the four cards, Burning Wish breaking LEDs for R and B to get IGG, play IGG floating BR to get back 2x LED and the 2nd Burning Wish. Repeat the cycle into Burning Wish into Tendrils for exactly 20 lifeloss (9 storm + tendrils). This takes 3UR on the turn after Doomsday. It's more difficult to pull off if you can't cheat mana with LED into Meditate.

To make this work with the new rules, you need an IGG in the sb to wish for and then it makes 18 lifeloss (might be good enough for a pass the turn pile). If you put a Wish in the sb, you can then Wish for Wish which makes a lethal Tendrils.

[kicks_422]

Dropping Duress seems very dangerous, as it picks off the two cards I hate to see the most - Chalice and Counterbalance. That looks like a great list for a blue-heavy metagame though. My list (as it stand now) looks kind of similar, with the major difference of -4 Silence and -1 land/Rain for +4 Duress and HelmShot in the main (which I've been contemplating to turn into Helm Freeze, since I've almost completely dropped red).

I've also been thinking about Enlightened Tutor as a 1 or 2 of, primarily as SDT 5-6. Turning it into an LED is just a bonus - however with already 4 Mysticals in the deck, adding Enlightened on top of that could take too much time.

Isochron Scepter is so cool though. It would be golden to pull that one off.

[Bahamuth]

I agree that the Scepter is potentially awesome. I like the idea of Enlightened Tutor as well, but only because this deck is so reliant on Top.

How scared is this deck of Chalice by the way? I mean, other than just Tutoring for answers, is there any pass the turn stack that can win through Chalice? This is obviously asuming you don't have a Top in play (you won't always have one in reality). As a matter of fact, what pile makes the most storm and goes through Chalice at 1?

[emidln]

I agree that the Scepter is potentially awesome. I like the idea of Enlightened Tutor as well, but only because this deck is so reliant on Top.

How scared is this deck of Chalice by the way? I mean, other than just Tutoring for answers, is there any pass the turn stack that can win through Chalice? This is obviously asuming you don't have a Top in play (you won't always have one in reality). As a matter of fact, what pile makes the most storm and goes through Chalice at 1?

4 Serenity, 1 Rushing River, 1 Echoing Truth, 2 Cabal Ritual, 2 Infernal Tutor is what I bring in vs chalices. Chalice @ 1 is ridiculously hard to win with game 1. thankfully, most chalice decks (aggro loam excluded) deal themselves a lot of damage so if you can stick a top turn 1 you might be able to win with artifacts and tendrils. It's not pretty though. Most of your hope would rest on drawing 1 of your removal spells or Meditate + Doomsday (or maybe playing a mini tendrils and then a doomsday and then trying another mini tendrils, but that sounds sketchy too). You probably lose game 1 if they chalice @ 1. If your opponent is playing a chalice deck, try to chantwalk them and then bring in the board cards.

If you do stick SDT, you can try this pile. Beware that it costs something like a million mana:

Meditate
LED
LED
Krosan Grip
Tendrils

5UG after Doomsday. That basically means you need 4 mana sources and 2 LED with a SDT in play. You break the LEDs for UUU and GGG.

[mercc]

Playing a Ad Nauseum deck with 4 mystical tutor is obvious, the wincard and accel-cards are all instants.

But doomsdaydecks like sensei and LED.... and, i dunno, helm of awakening? And isochron scepter as you say. Maybe it's transition time!

[Waikiki]

Why doesn't a doomsday list pack 1 infernal tutor maindeck to be able to go led led IT voor IGG and continue for the win?

Is it possible without an IT aswell?

[emidln]

Why doesn't a doomsday list pack 1 infernal tutor maindeck to be able to go led led IT voor IGG and continue for the win?

Is it possible without an IT aswell?

IGG goes in several Doomsday piles. The most common is Brainstorm in hand or SDT in play, 2 additional cards in hand, and 1U available. You stack SDT/Brainstorm (whichever you don't have), LED, LED, IGG, Tendrils. It generates lethal storm with just the pile.

You can go for IGG with Mystical + a blue cantrip as well. I do it sometimes when I don't have the ability to cast Doomsday for whatever reason. It usually requires an LED or two to make it work, otherwise the manacost is going to be insane.

You'd probably need two Infernal Tutors anyway. LED, LED, IT, IGG, LED, LED, IT -> Tendrils only produces 8 copies of Tendrils total. An extra IT gives you 9 copies, which is usually good enough (or maybe you can scrounge another spell). This issue if you don't have the LEDs in hand (for instance, if they're already in play against a discard deck). It's why several builds included an extra IGG in the sb.

I'd still suggest finding a list that you are personally comfortable with and playing it though. If you like IT, go for it.

[mercc]

IGG goes in several Doomsday piles. The most common is Brainstorm in hand or SDT in play, 2 additional cards in hand, and 1U available. You stack SDT/Brainstorm (whichever you don't have), LED, LED, IGG, Tendrils. It generates lethal storm with just the pile.

You can go for IGG with Mystical + a blue cantrip as well. I do it sometimes when I don't have the ability to cast Doomsday for whatever reason. It usually requires an LED or two to make it work, otherwise the manacost is going to be insane.

You'd probably need two Infernal Tutors anyway. LED, LED, IT, IGG, LED, LED, IT -> Tendrils only produces 8 copies of Tendrils total. An extra IT gives you 9 copies, which is usually good enough (or maybe you can scrounge another spell). This issue if you don't have the LEDs in hand (for instance, if they're already in play against a discard deck). It's why several builds included an extra IGG in the sb.

I'd still suggest finding a list that you are personally comfortable with and playing it though. If you like IT, go for it.

I think he means why isn't the list including 1 infernal tutor to be able to win without doomsday, just by the simple Infernal-IGGY loop for tendrils.

[Bahamuth]

IGG goes in several Doomsday piles. The most common is Brainstorm in hand or SDT in play, 2 additional cards in hand, and 1U available. You stack SDT/Brainstorm (whichever you don't have), LED, LED, IGG, Tendrils. It generates lethal storm with just the pile.

You can go for IGG with Mystical + a blue cantrip as well. I do it sometimes when I don't have the ability to cast Doomsday for whatever reason. It usually requires an LED or two to make it work, otherwise the manacost is going to be insane.

You'd probably need two Infernal Tutors anyway. LED, LED, IT, IGG, LED, LED, IT -> Tendrils only produces 8 copies of Tendrils total. An extra IT gives you 9 copies, which is usually good enough (or maybe you can scrounge another spell). This issue if you don't have the LEDs in hand (for instance, if they're already in play against a discard deck). It's why several builds included an extra IGG in the sb.

I'd still suggest finding a list that you are personally comfortable with and playing it though. If you like IT, go for it.

After a little testing yesterday against Landstill, Tempo Thresh (where I was definitely negative :( ) and ANT, I found I don't like some stuff about the list Emidln posted. I was going to suggest the singleton IT here too, since the situation came up twice.
Also, in a DDANT hybrid, is the IGG really needed? I don't even think I won once using IGG in 20+ games I played. Usually Meditate Petal LED/Rit LED/Rit Tendrills does the trick anyway.

How much/which set of accel you do see as required for AdN to run decently? Would 4 Rit 4 LED 4 Petal 1 Rain of Filth be good enough?

[bruno_tiete]

I once won a game through Chalice at one by breaking into a DD pile with Infernal Tutor for Meditate. I am pretty sure it's very unlikely to pull off with limited ability to search for the singleton IT, but it worked nonetheless. (well, probably because I was given infinite time and couldn't find a better way through)

It was a lot easier to come by because i was plaing hybrid, so I had acess to 4 petals, 3 Crits and 2 ITs.

[DireLemming]

I've been testing emidln's latest list. It's fabulous. Some observations:

1. E. Tutor is fantastic.
   
2. with so many dig and shuffle effects are the 4th DD and LED really needed? I'm especially suspicious of DD. Opening 2 is like a mulligan and it rarely draws a counter because it usually makes more sense to counter the draw after. I ran some simulations and the difference between 3 and 4 is insignificant but this is under somewhat simplified (compared to a human -- me -- it takes about 0.5 a turn longer to kill and the storm count is sometimes < 10) goldfish conditions.
   
3. on the topic of after DD protection, I think a single Duress would be nice, since producing 3 colours can be awkward at times.
   
4. I cut K. Grip for EE. Several reasons:
   
   1. EE is proactive (allows better tempo management),
   2. your opponent generally needs to race you, therefore they are forced to overextend and get punished by 1 for n,
   3. randomly ups the storm count for free,
   4. I can cut green altogether making the manabase a bit more idiot proof (when I'm 100% on top of my game 4c manabase is not a problem, but in later stages of a tournament I'll take all the reprieve I can get),
   5. kills most of the hate-bears. In multiples if need be.
   
   
5. Scepter is a cute trick but ultimately too slow and mana-intensive (the turn you play it, you effectively time-walk yourself). Might be better in a build with REBs.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I'm testing a list without Duress atm also, but I don't run 8 chants. Here's my protection suite:

2x Orim's Chant
2x Silence
(The irony of Chanting and Silence being the same kind of card makes me smile)
2x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Krosan Grip
1x Echoing Truth

and then 2x Burning Wish with a Thoughtseize in the SB. I don't like the EE. What's it for that my Echoing Truth can't do? Tokens, multiple bears (most lists don't run more than one kind of hate-bear, they just don't have the space), not to mention that with EE you have to know what you need to pay for it before they play it. At least for Chalice and CB, anyway.

[DireLemming]

EE is better against CB and can dodge random Spell Snares. Granted, in your build this is not such an issue because you are running blasts.

How is having protection spread across 3 secondary colours working out for you? I'm a bit concerned about decks like Tempo Thresh and Dreadstill that combine permission with mana-denial.

[emidln]

I don't play EE for the same reason I don't play Deed. They cost a lot of many on my turn, which is something I'm not comfortable with. Incidentally, they can still be countered by Counterbalance, although not as easily. EE is also not nearly as tutorable as Wipe Away (I'm simply assuming that you're keeping the first split second spell and then adding EE). EE probably is better than Deed in 7-8chant builds though, due to the lack of green and black mana before comboing most of the time.

[Dark_Cynic87]

EE is better against CB and can dodge random Spell Snares. Granted, in your build this is not such an issue because you are running blasts.

How is having protection spread across 3 secondary colours working out for you? I'm a bit concerned about decks like Tempo Thresh and Dreadstill that combine permission with mana-denial.

Sure the E. Truth's run into Spell Snare a lot, but so do EE's set at 2.

The secondary colors are fine. I'm running for lands:

4x Delta
2x Mire
2x City of Brass
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Badlands
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Island
1x Swamp

I want Enemy Fetches so bad. A UR fetch would be so sexy. Name it Rocky Brook or Canyon River something cool. UG and BG would also be so helpful for some other storm builds too.

Pce,

--DC

[JeroenC]

Testing this list atm:

// Lands
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [U] Bayou
1 [APL] Island (3)
1 [CST] Swamp (1)
1 [R] Badlands
1 [U] Volcanic Island
2 [B] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Spells
1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
1 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [TO] Cabal Ritual
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [TE] Lotus Petal
1 [US] Rain of Filth
1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [OV] Meditate
2 [OV] Pyroblast
2 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
2 [LRW] Ponder
3 [6E] Doomsday
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [DDC] Duress
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor

Quite happy about it. Running IT maindeck with 2 IGG just to open up my options. Don't have a sideboard quite figured out yet, but it'll probably contain some of these:
2/3 O. Chant
1 K. Grip
1 Wipe Away
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Echoing Truth
1 Slaughter Pact

Stuff like that. Though I've been considering a sideboard with a shitload of artifacts and 4 E. Tutor (cards like Dispeller's and Executioner's Capsule, EE, Isochron Scepter).

[GreenOne]

Did you test Burning Wish in such a list? I'd run a couple, going -1 Wipe Away, -1 IGG +2 Wish.

This way you can still wish for IGG and have access to creature removal in Grapeshot / death mark / pyroclasm. The 2xLED IGG chain still makes 9 storm with wish, so the second IGG is quite useless.

[JeroenC]

That's a good idea. I had 2 Burning Wish and no IT, nor the second IGG first. I found myself wanting the loop game 1 often, so I dropped B. Wish for IT and the second IGG. Never thought about it like that. Thanks.
Any other comments on the list?

Edit: also, I was wondering which are the "best" piles for when you have either
-Tendrils
-Meditate
already in hand.

[jjjoness']

Don't run 6th Edition Mystical Tutor. Ever.

Anyways, how did playing with 4 Red Blasts but onl 1 Chant work for you? How do you play around counters when you have to crack LED (no matter in what engine you use it)?

[JeroenC]

I wouldn't dare, my M. Tutors are Mirage- as they should be. I'm just too lazy to change the editions on MWS. No pimp value to be had there.

That's mostly why I have 4 Duress and against counter-heavy decks, I make sure I get my Chant. I haven't tested this list a lot, but originally I played no Chants maindeck. I added one back because it felt unsafe before. But mostly, preboard, I try to defend against Counterbalance. If necessary though, I'll just wait until I can combo without LED. It's not always optimal, but it's giving me the best feeling I can get from a DDFT list atm.

This is the sideboard I'm running atm. The cards in it seem right, though I might tinker with the amounts a little bit. I'd love to run Serenity, but it's no good with my manabase. I used to love Slaughter Pact, but it seems unnecessary.

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Deathmark
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [8E] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [VI] Helm of Awakening
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip