Hello guys,
I've still be slowly playing the deck, trying to get as many games in as I can these days.
I had a question - what do you guys board in/out against Aggro Loam?
I've had a tough time thinking about that one.
Here's the sideboard I'm currently fiddling around with:
3 Divert
3 Extirpate
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Snare (for when I'm on the draw mainly)
1 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
Thanks!
I'd definitely board in Blue blasts, Extirpates, and Spell Snares. Take out Daze and Sinkhole.
Then you should probably board in Deeds, too, since Chalice shuts off your hate. Deed will bust a few moxen too.
disrupt is good vs. burn, too. it counters like all of their burn spells because they play their curve and gives you the bonus of an extra card.Originally Posted by keys
Thanks! I was trying to consider if I should board out my mana disruption or not.
Do you think Stifle should go out before Sinkhole? That was my thought since Sinkhole will hit any of their lands and makes you slightly less hurt under Chalice @ 1?
I did:
-4 Stifle
-4 Sinkhole
-2 Snuff Out (since I was bringing in Deed)
+2 Pernicious Deed
+3 Extirpate
+3 Spell Snare
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Blue Elemental Blast
against Aggro Loam this weekend.
I would leave stifle in against aggro loam over sinkhole, as nailing a first turn fetchland is a lot more devastating than anything sinkhole can do here. They are both going to be extremely situational, but at least stifle can pitch to force of will and will generate more tempo in the early game (albeit more conditionally).
I would strongly advise against cutting snuff outs against aggro loam. That is one of the most powerful cards you have against them. Waste lock is one of the major things you are afraid of in this matchup so your plan is to try and drop early threats while clearing theirs away. Deed is a bit slow but it is more powerful than alot of your disruption and nails their artifacts, so I guess it's fine.
I don't agree with extirpate at all in your sideboard, and most loam lists run burning wish anyway. What is this card supposed to do? I guess hitting wasteland can help, but it's still card disadvantage and very situational.
You can also consider cutting a few dazes if you run out of things to take out post board.
they haunt minds...
Extirpating Loam can stall them until they find a Wish. Stifles are definitely useful against fetches, wastes, cycle, or even Crusher triggers. Nitewolf9's right that Snuff Out should stay in for sure. Dazes out for Snares since they play so many land + moxen, and half their deck is cmc 2.
(obviously I'm making this decisions based on your SB)
Yeah I almost considered leaving the BEB/Hydroblast in board because it gets hurt by their Chalice @ 1 and I have so many other things I want to bring in (like leaving 4 Snuff Out in and bringing in Deeds).
My thought on Deed was that if you blow it at 3, it destroys every permenant they have and if you have a Tombstalker out, that should pretty much wreck them?
Extirpating Life from the Loam under M10 rules is highly disruptive, and definitly worth the effort, especially if they started with a B.Wish for Loam to begin with.
Ok, so I just won my 3 tournament in a row with this deck. I went 3-1-1 in swiss and 3-0 in the top 8. This is just a mini-report and some thoughts.
Decklist:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Sinkhole
3 Ponder
3 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
3 Snuff Out
1 Thoughtseize
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thoughtseize
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Chill
2 Threads of Disloyalty
Rd 1: Zoo
Game 1: Basic disruption. He gets me down to 10 before I land some goyfs and Stalkers with counter back up as I destroy his manabase
I bring in 2 Threads/3 Edicts and take out 1 Seize and 4 Sinkhole
Game 2: I get too 13 or so before he runs out of critters, I drop a goyf, and then steal a goyf and it is over before long
1-0(2-0)
Rd 2: Pox
Game 1: We knock each other down with pox/sinkhole effects. I run out of lands. Turns into a topdeck war that he wins with Phyrexian Totem
I forget what I brought in but it didnt matter.
Game 2: Same thing happens, I run out of lands again, and Mishra's Factory and Nether Spirit take it home for him.
1-1 (2-2)
Rd 3: Aluren
Game 1: Kept him off double Green, he could never play a threat and stalker killed him. He missed attacks and played poorly and seemed to be new so this wasn't very close
Take out a couple Sinkholes for 2 thoughtseize
Game 2: I thoughtseize out an aluren and then have to counter a second one before I take control and goyf him out.
2-1(4-2)
Rd 4: Nassif C-balance
Game 1: I have a slow hand and can't work over his mana base. He gets me down with sowers. I drop goyf and Stalker, he then Shackles one of them and kills me with it.
I take out 2 Ponders I believe for 2 thoughtseize
Game 2: I just wreck his mana, he plays 2 C-balances after I get 2 goyfs out and it is over in short term.
Game 3: I am a bit slow, having drawn all 4 sinkholes and a tombstalker with a Sea and Trop in play. I eventually hit my 2 black, and proceed to sinkhole 4 lands in a row, along with a stilfe'd fetch and wasteland. Unfortunately, time is called and he StP my only threat and we draw. I would have won hands down had we had more time.
2-1-1 (5-3-1)
Rd 5: Zoo
Game 1: Is similar to round 1, game 1, and I just get there with 2 Goyfs.
I bring in the same SB package as Rd 1.
Game 2: This one was odd. I have him down to 1, and I am at 8. Totally in control. He mises a top deck red souce and proceeds to price to progress us both for the draw. Awkward.
Game 3: He gets me down fast with a pair of Lavamancer's and then kills me with Price to Progress.
Game 4: I end this one at 17 life, so it seems it wasn't very close. I assume goyfs got there. I know deed got me a 3 for 1 at some point.
3-1-1 (7-4-2)
Top8:
Ad Naus
White Stax
Pox
Team America (Me)
Dreadstill
2x Zoo
Enchantress
Quarters: Zoo (Rd 5 opponent)
Game 1: About the same as all my game 1s against this deck. I just manage to get there with enough Stalker Damage.
Same package as always...
Game 2: Also not close, burn and a snuff out gets me to 10, but I have enough counters to stop most of what he does and Goyfs take the rest.
Ad Naus beats Enchantress
Pox beats Zoo
Stax beats Dreadstill
Semis: Ad Naus
Game 1: He tries to go off with Ad Naus on turn 2-3 and I force it and proceed to Goyf for the win.
Take out 3 Snuff out and 1 Sinkhole for 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Chill.
Game 2: Turn 2 for him, I am sitting on 1 sea up and I have daze and stifle in hand. This turn took like 20 minutes literally. He casts some spells and Ill gotten gains. I pitch my hand and recoup Stifle, Daze, and Ponder while he gets LED, Dark Ritual, and Infernal Tutor. He has 1 mana floating at this point, Ritual puts him to 4, and casts LED and I proceed to float blue and Daze it. After a long time he decides pay 1. Plays Tutor for Ad Naus hoping to win on another turn. After a few turns of draw-go, I get a goyf out and start ruining his mana base. He had one last shot with Burning Wish which I spell snare'd.
Finals: Pox (Loss from round 2)
I offer the draw, but he wants to rock and roll, so we do.
Game 1: We get into a top deck war, and I had enough mana to keep playing things. Goyfs gets me there in the end while he cant get past 2 mana.
Bring in 3 Edicts and take out 3 Snuff Out.
Game 2: A couple misplaces cost him in this game. I have a deed out and 4 mana up. He activates Factory and swings with it and Spirit which I both deed out which he forgot about the Factory, so it died too. I tap out next turn for a tombstalker and something else. His turn he forgets to bring back spirit and plays tombstalker. I get to untap and use the diabolic edict to kill his stalker and he can't get there off the top decks.
3-0 (6-0)
Zoo was amazingly easy for me once I had the edict/threads package. Chill was in there to replace snuff out where it is useless so FoW could get more stuff to pitch and in the red matchup so it isn't an auto loss. I like this SB a lot, and I think going up to 3 threads/2 chills might even be better.
So...any advice for a complete SB in this meta?
I think
3 krosan grip
2 pithing needle for sensei, vial, relic, survival, tormod and many others
3 pernicious dead
3 divert
2 perish
and 2...?
Your weaknesses look to be Ichorid and Sligh/Burn, so Tormod's Crypt or Hydroblast/BEB/Chill would be a good addition.
I dont know your list, but the question you have to ask yourself is "why am I running this card, what do I take out, and what matchup does it help."
I almost always include 4 Leyline of the Void in my SB. No reason to get caught with pants down against Ichorid and it is good against so many decks. The argument "you dont have rituals" is an awful that has almost no meaning what so ever. Plenty of vintage decks run this card without rituals, because it comes into play for free.
Chill > BEB because it affects multiple spells, you will more than likely lose if you are trading spell for spell with the red deck. Chill at least does 2 things A) Makes the red deck clock slower and B) You can bring it in for snuff out for the Combo Matchup since it is less dead (can pitch to FoW).
On Leyline, you say you don't want to be caught with your pants down, but what happens when you don't draw it in your opening 7? You're waiting four turns before those pants are coming back up. It's not like a turn zero Leyline is gg either; most board 4-6 Chain of Vapor/Wispmare. I really think Crypt is better here, since you can dig for it and play it the same turn. The OPs swore by this choice and I'm in agreement. Plus, more and more players are dropping Needle for Gargadon.
On Chill, I think you're spot on. To win versus burn/sligh, you need cards that will swing the game, not just trade 1-for-1. I've started playing 3 Divert, 2 Chill, 0 blasts. Divert has the added value of being incredible in the Eva Green matchup as well. The problem with this is losing turn 1 counters for Blood Moon... so I'm unsure if it's the right decision.
Well, you have to mull until you get the Leyline, in Dredge otherwise you are probably losing anyway. Leyline is just so good against other decks like 43land and Survival that I don't see a reason not to have it. I dont understand this Gargadon for Needle thing?
They use Gargadon as anti removal/graveyard hate. Avoids graveyard and you can sack targeted items to it.
Stu55;
Nice tournament report. My friend playing Pox deffinitely made some play mistakes in G2 that lost it for him in the finals. I think he was nervous being his first real Legacy Tournament and all. I hate playing against his list every time we play Legacy. The only times I am able to beat him is with CB/top, and sometimes that isn't enough. Pox is deffinitely a better deck than people give it credit for.
That had to be the most diverse meta I've ever seen. Also, I really like your choice of Chill in the SB over blasts. The synergy with land destruction is perfect.
I was wondering if the Snuff-out's/Thoughtseize felt like too much life loss or not. When I tried Team America, that's what turned me off to the deck. Although, I was also running all 4 Thoughtseize's and D-Confidant...
Sage
I disagree with this completely. I have cut yard hate from my board completely and have never looked back. You can beat ichorid without it. Plus, it's never really present in sufficient numbers to warrant such narrow cards in your sideboard. I don't know where you are playing where 43land is a sufficient meta concern, but you can beat them without yard hate as well. Play Tombstalker, keep blowing up Maze of Ith, counter Manabond. Survival is generally a good matchup for you anyway because of how mana hungry the deck is, unless you get paired against Elf Survival. Then you really want Plague, not Leyline.
I'd be more concerned with Merfolk, Elf Survival, Zoo, Counter/Top, Landstill (the "3 color" builds with lots of basics and shit tons of cheap removal), and maybe Sligh.
they haunt minds...
fixed :)
So, last night we've got a huge team playtest session.
I mean, huge, like in "8pm-6am huge playtest session" x_x
I brought and test several decks (Elves Survival, Bant Thresh) and my take on Team America.
Here's the list :
// Beatstick : 9
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Tombstalker
2x Vendillion Clique
// Countermeasure : 11
4x FoW
4x Daze
3x SpellSnare
// Disruption : 8
4x Stifle
4x Sinkhole
// Dig&Filter : 8
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
// Removal : 4
4x Snuff Out
// Manabase : 20
4x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
1x BloodStained Mire
4x Wasteland
Beside the obvious core cards, the main changes are :
- Inclusion of SpellSnare instead of ThoughtSeize
Beside Thoughtseize being a bad topDeck (not too revelant when compared to Snare), with Zoo, Goblin, GoyfSligh, Goblins and Burn around here, the life loss of 'Seize was too important.
Plus, beeing able to handle the best TopDecked Legacy Cards (Goyf, CB, Confidant, Burning Wish...) AND Price of Progress is obviously where SpellSnare shine.
- Inclusion of Vendillion Clique
Upping the threat density was a thing I was working on for some time. I have proposed and tested Coatl but he is not 100% reliant cause I often used my cantrips to dig for additionnal and early disruption and answers.
So when the snake could attack, he was just a mere Vanilla 3/3.
Clique was a good Idea : 3 damages a turn with evasion and build-in disruption.
To be honest : I was disapointed by the Clique and often wished it was an additionnal Stalker.
In the Future, I'll test 1x Clique beside the full sets of Goyfs&Stalkers...
Now, my Sideboard for this night was :
3x Hydroblast
3x Divert
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Krosan Grip
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So, about the test session :
Goyf Sligh (classic old list with a light white splash (2x Plateau) for MD Nacatl<=>Lava Spike switch).
Total : 3-2 - PreBoard : 0-2 - Postboard : 3-0
SB tables :
On the play +3 Hydroblast +3 Divert +2 EE -2 Cliques -1 Daze -4 SnuffOut -1 Stifle
On the Draw +3 Hydroblast +3 Divert +2 EE -2 Cliques -4 Daze -2 SnuffOut
Clearly, I am tuning my SB to get a good Zoo//Sligh//Burn matchup post-board. Those decks are horrendous opponents, and G1 is like a night walk in the park for them.
The thing is, I have much to board in, but it's hard to side out some card like Stifle and Sinkhole 'cause the 3Color manabase of his list can be easily disrupted (fetching basic mountains are not that good when playing Kird Ape and Nacatl). Also, I was fearing Relics from his board, so I tried to keep the stifle count as high as possible.
Divert was clearly the MVP. 2-for-1'ing Zoo diverting a bolt on their Nacatl//Apes gives enought time to recover and race them back post-board.
I have no remorses using SnuffOut on a Turn1 Nacatl as my only out when the pesky kitten passed through my early BEB//Snare counterwall.
With Hydroblasts and MD Snares, the burn protection package is well rounded and you 'only' have to handle those pesky Goyfs and/or PoP.
I was a bit disappointed with Cliques. Dying to every removal in Sligh//Zoo + Lavamancer is weak, but even as a surprise blocker they couldn't do their job correctly (Lavamancers).
My teammate brought(brang?) in Chokes and REB and Shusher but :
- Choke 3cc is weak when you lose 3 of your 17 lands in the first 4 turns
- Idem for shusher 'cause you have bad time keeping 1 mana up and casting your spells vs TA hate package. PLUS Diverting a spell ain't Countering it (Divert a Bolt on shusher made my day btw)
Rbg Goblins (with Mad Autie, the new Lord, and Mout + 4xWW 3xGempalm 2xStingscourger MD oO; )
Total : 0-4 - PreBoard : 0-2 - Postboard : 0-2
SB tables : +3 Hydroblast +2 EE +2 Pernicious Deed -4 Daze -1 Stifle -1 Sinkhole -1 Ponder
I kept the snares in cause I knew his list and was afraid of his removal package
Reaaaaaaally disapointing. But I got lucksacked all games...
Not really lucksacked, but the deck shit on me this time.
First game, pre-board :
I Snuff his 1st turn lackey, Force his 2nd Turn Vial, Stifle, Waste and Sinkole his lands, SpellSnare some Piledriver and so on for 6-7 turns.
If you came at the table at his moment I was facing an clean, neat, empty board with 2xU.Seas, 1xBayou, 1xTropical by my side and a hand which consisted of 2xSnuffOut 2xFoW.
Guess what ?! Yeah, I lost that one.
- I never drew any beater in the first 10 rounds
- Turns 8&9 I couldn't handle his 2 land drops in a row
- I then topDeck a Goyf and he WW it => I FoW
- Next turn, he WW again and I didn't draw another blue card among Daze, SpellSnare or Brainstorm//Ponder
- I then proceed to topdeck fetches, fetch for more lands and topdeck lands or fetch in rounds 10-13 among now useless Snares
- I Hardcast SnuffOut twice to get rid on Warchief and a 2nd Piledriver (1st was Snared) but I get slid with a Ringleader for PileDriver, Matron and WW//Stingscourger and died in 3-4 turn after that.
I never drew another Goyf or Stalker with backup for his WW.
In the 3 games which followed I was out of the game. Still, I handle lackeys and vials with EE or FoW to shut his early engine down, Stifle some matrons and Ringleaders, but Warchief and lords beatdown with too much removal backup killed me.
He even hadn't to draw his Perish or relics all SB games...
Deed was disappointing, but it didn't surprise me due to Goblin disruption and high CC beatsticks. I only once swept the board with deed, but it was a desparate move : the previous asssault put me too low in life and 2 mere goblins took me down while multiple WW and Stingscourgers handled my blockers.
I really don't know if it was sheer bad luck, bold and bad moves from me or just a really bad matchup for TA or my build, but I'm still bitter about those matchs.
Then I moved on to face TempoThresh and wreck it like the deck is meant(?) to do.
I've made some previous test vs Burn (with Fanatics, Hellspark AND Marauders) and I must say that it wasn't the beating I was afraid of. SpellSnare, Daze, FoW are not enough to slow them down, but when you add SinkHole and early Goyf//Stalker beating, you can race them Game1.
BEB are 'good' but Divert is stellar : slowing their clock and speed up yours is priceless.
Just don't get caught your pants down postBoard by a random Ensnaring Bridge (and by PoP obv.) and this matchup is winnable.
I still have to make more tests vs a competent Ichorid, Storm and Landstill player (whom we have in the Team, but hadn't the time to test all the matchup for everyone's favored deck), but the list seems quite tuned.
Still, later in the session I swith to Bant Thresh and the results were FAR better than the ones listed above. The thing is : vs TempoThresh it was like 50-50 where with TA I felt I had the upper hand on this matchup.
In conclusion : I'm not sure I'm ready to bring TA in the next 30+ tournament... At least with that horrendous Goblin matchup.
Good insights. Well I played in a 24 man tourney yesterday and went 1-2 drop. I'll write a quick summary.
I used the basic list -1 Ponder, -2 Thoughtseize, +1 Maelstrom Pulse, +2 Spell Snare, with this SB:
3 Divert
3 Hydroblast (I kept these in just for the D Stompy match... Grrrrrr)
2 Perish
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
First round (haven't scouted, no idea what he's playing) vs. Dragon Stompy I'm on the draw. He mulls to 5, I keep a hand with heavy LD: 2 Stifle, Waste, Sinkhole, a Ponder maybe. He's Mountain go. I draw a Stalker or something, and play a fetch. Next turn is City, Trinisphere. I waste his city, and a couple turns later Sinkhole his Mountain, hoping to lock him under his own Sphere. Then he goes City, SSG, Blood Moon. I have no Force/Daze and I'm tapped out anyway.
Game 2 I keep a hand with 2 Hydroblast, Ponder, K Grip, and fetches. He goes first turn Chalice=1 and follows up next turn with a Magus...
D stompy just hoses this deck if they get lucky. I'm seriously thinking about putting a basic Island and Forest SB. That would probably help out more than blasts against D Stompy and Burn (Merfolk too).
Next round I won handily versus CounterTop w/Black. One game I played 3 Stalkers and he forced them all. The 4th one stuck after I blew up all his lands ;)
Third round I get paired with Burn. I saw one blast, no Divert in both games. He had multiple Prices and I had no chance...
I think this deck is good in a developed metagame with lots of Top and Combo/Control. But it just gets eaten alive by random red shit. If I play this again I will be trying out basics in the SB.
Last edited by keys; 07-26-2009 at 07:14 PM.
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