[Deck] Suicide Black

[miko]

you can play senseis top. just to avoid too much damage by confidant and improve your draw quality

[Aleksandr]

Sideboard hasn't been tested enough, but it looks good on paper.

Perish?

[pandaman]

Gargoyle Castle is better than Tomb of Urami, though I would probably run neither.

Yes, further testing has proved that Tomb of Urami is really bad here. Chopped!

@ Aleksandr - In my opinion, in the sideboard Dystopia > Perish in most cases. If you play Dystopia they can't slow-roll their creatures against you because it hangs around, and if you have Jitte active it can hang around for a long time! Also, Dystopia has more utility because it hits white creatures as well. My testing of both has me liking Dystopia for these reason.

[overseer1234]

Perish?

I don't think tyou need it... meekstone keeps the big creqture's at bay (chump them if you need to) and smother take's care of every other big thing short of akroma and stuf....

I now play the deck whith 20 land and kicked the yailers (Ichorid is somthing you'll have to live with) and play a 4th jitte (you need it whith all the lifeloss) and I'm trying out some of the jump/pump knights, since first strike comes in handy against goblin, and flying isgood evasion is good overall.

If you don't like to invest this much mana then maybe black knight, carnophage, or daughty slayer are ;ore suitable.

[enemyofarsenic]

Oona's prowler seems to be decent here. It is also a tombstalker enabler if you can afford discarding some of your cards.

[pandaman]

I now play the deck whith 20 land and kicked the yailers (Ichorid is somthing you'll have to live with) and play a 4th jitte (you need it whith all the lifeloss) and I'm trying out some of the jump/pump knights, since first strike comes in handy against goblin, and flying isgood evasion is good overall.

If you don't like to invest this much mana then maybe black knight, carnophage, or daughty slayer are ;ore suitable.

Let us know how the 4th Jitte is working out for you? And which pump knight have you found the best? Ebon Hand is first strike, Stromgald Crusader is flying and Stillmoon Cavalier is flying, right? I would be leaning towards Stillmoon Cavalier because of the additional protection, but which are you finding to be the better 2 drop option?

[overseer1234]

Let us know how the 4th Jitte is working out for you? And which pump knight have you found the best? Ebon Hand is first strike, Stromgald Crusader is flying and Stillmoon Cavalier is flying, right? I would be leaning towards Stillmoon Cavalier because of the additional protection, but which are you finding to be the better 2 drop option?

Well that depends,

If you expect a lot of big creature decks then de jumpknight is the way to go since they'll have trouble blocking it.

If the meta is more weeny based the first strike knight is your thing because it doesn't die while blocking/being blocked (goblins hate first strike :D).

Stillmoon Cavalier is pretty solid but sometime's the 1 extra mana is a problem but an extra land or 2 should take care of it. This also make's EE for 2 less painful, and blocking a tombstalker whitout losing your knight is deffinitly a plus.

The 4th jitte is solid, whith this much weeny's you'll never have trouble finding one to equip, and you REALLY don't want to see an ective jitte on your opponent's side of the table so making it double up as jitte remover is rellevant.

[pandaman]

Thanks for the rundown Keep us updated on your results with the deck!

[overseer1234]

No problem:

Some obvious notifications regarding the matchup's:

Agro: our own damage can severly hurt us, but jitte and smother should keep you on top, use some creativity with EPlague and you should be fine.

Midrange (rock, loam): Deed and EE are a real pest, board in P.Needle for this. Meekstone keeps down annything to big, and smother the rest. Use jitte to keep your life total above 20. keep an eye out for devatating dreams, these decks really hurt us.

Controll: Did suicide ever have problems with this archtype? after boarding bring in the needle's and cabal therapy. Watch out for CB/SDT

Combo: thoughtseize, hymn, specter... yeah you should be good, bring in therapy's for G2

Agro/controll (thresh/maethooks): keep an eye out for EE, other then that you should be fine if you can play around the counters, and use meekstone to keep their creature's down. (watch out for meathooks alpha strike). Again, watch out for CB/SDT....

Burn/Sligh: your only hope is to get jitte active in time and hymn away some stuff... Lavamancer eats your deck

Ichorid: Just hope you dodge them in the pairings...

[pandaman]

I don't know if the Ichorid matchup being as bad as you say. Although I do think it's still reasonably bad. In the first game if you can catch them on the right hand and can use your pinpoint discard to make them ditch their discard enablers you can sometimes sneak away with a win, though not often. Postboard you can take out some of the discard and bring in Leyline, Engineered Plague and Powder Keg (in my board) you can actually make a real go of it. That's more than 8 enchantments/artifacts that hurt versus usually not that many enchantment destruction/bounce cards.

It's definitely not the worst matchup, I think that honor goes to Burn. Although with your deck having 4 Jitte you might have a chance to get it up and running most of the time. Would you mulligan to it?

And one more question - is returning Ichorid in your upkeep an activated ability? If so maybe Pithing Needle could come in too?

Finally, what do you think of the Elf Combo matchup? I think it's in their favour preboard (although if you use Wasteland and make them discard mana elves you have a chance) but postboard I think it swings back to us, with Engineered Plague and in my board Dystopia and Powder Keg coming in. You could also Pithing Needle Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinal or Wirewood Symbiote for good effect.

[overseer1234]

I don't know if the Ichorid matchup being as bad as you say. Although I do think it's still reasonably bad. In the first game if you can catch them on the right hand and can use your pinpoint discard to make them ditch their discard enablers you can sometimes sneak away with a win, though not often. Postboard you can take out some of the discard and bring in Leyline, Engineered Plague and Powder Keg (in my board) you can actually make a real go of it. That's more than 8 enchantments/artifacts that hurt versus usually not that many enchantment destruction/bounce cards.

I'll put is more like this: your disruption usually helps them more than annything else, short of getting extremely lucky with hymn and specter (or the occasional thoughtseize). If you get jitte+blossom you should have a good chance at winning, usually i even throw a counter on my own token.... (again, jitte make's the difference). G2 depends on the amount of sideboard slots you dedicate to it, but I think EE, Deed and CB/SDT should worry you more then ichorid....

It's definitely not the worst matchup, I think that honor goes to Burn. Although with your deck having 4 Jitte you might have a chance to get it up and running most of the time. Would you mulligan to it?

it depends... if you start with specters and hymn's and rituals in your hand then I would keep it. other then that just go for the jitte (again play 4 of those)

And one more question - is returning Ichorid in your upkeep an activated ability? If so maybe Pithing Needle could come in too?

Nope, it's triggered, so needle has no effect.

Finally, what do you think of the Elf Combo matchup? I think it's in their favour preboard (although if you use Wasteland and make them discard mana elves you have a chance) but postboard I think it swings back to us, with Engineered Plague and in my board Dystopia and Powder Keg coming in. You could also Pithing Needle Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinal or Wirewood Symbiote for good effect.

You have discard, removal and jitte... keep them of theY'r combo plan whith discard and when they go for the backhup plan you nuke the lords...

Post board gets better because of plague obviously since the only thing you dont want in your main deck is the meekstone...

[lordofthepit]

In what metagames would you play Suicide Black over Eva Green?

In theory, I suppose staying mono-black can help against non-basic hate, but I think you can't really justify that if you're losing out on Tarmogoyfs, Grips/Seals, Chokes, etc., as well as the ability to fuel Tombstalker with fetchlands.

[Elfrago]

You can still play Fetchlands in monoblack. In fact, if you're playing Stalker, you should play fetchlands too.

[overseer1234]

In what metagames would you play Suicide Black over Eva Green?

In theory, I suppose staying mono-black can help against non-basic hate, but I think you can't really justify that if you're losing out on Tarmogoyfs, Grips/Seals, Chokes, etc., as well as the ability to fuel Tombstalker with fetchlands.

Well EVA Green is a tempo deck and just try's to power out fast cheap disruption, and hope's the undercosted fat finishes the game before the opponent recovvers.

You could play it mono black by kicking goyf, seal and bayou and just replace them with Ashenmoor Gouger/Phyrexian Negator/Wasp Lancer, Jitte and basic swamps.

I used to play it like that (before I got my goyf's and bayou's) and usually won against eva green because they have a lot more dead cards like wasteland and snuff out (we can kill bayou's and goyf's) and the main deck jitte give's you and edge G1

G2 gets a bit worse but since u usually win G1 (we can do T1 ritual+gouger, they can't) you only need to win 1 more game and you still have less dead cards then they do.




This version of suicide black that we are discussing:
Dark Meekstone

4x Meekstone
4x Umezawa’s Jitte

4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Bitterblossom (yeah this counts as creature)

4x Dark Ritual
4x Smother

16x Swamp
4x Wasteland

4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize


works in a totaly different way, and is more controll oriented.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I had always wanted to make a suicide B/R deck with Avatars, like:

4 Ashenmoor Gouger
3 Avatar of Discord
3 Tombstalker
2 Ashenmoor Liege
3 Demigod of Revenge
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thoughtseize
etc

Ritual out gouger or discord...bob.. Discord throws lots of cards away feeding tombstalker. I was also gonna play 6 fetch, too. Maybe even spinning darkness or fireblast as finishers, otherwise snuff out and go even more suicidal lol. I was almost even thinking throwing in 2 Phyrexian Arenas to just draw like a mad man.

This would be a true suicide rush, and the key would be "big creatures with evasion", like almost able to outcompete reanimator & faeries in the air :P

Would this make any sense or is this FAIL waiting to happen? lol

[DragoFireheart]

Stillmoon Cavalier is house against non-red decks. Can fly over Goyfs, can chump block quite a few creatures like a champ, is immune to lots of removal.

I see this decks largest problem is random-red jank, Burn, and fast combo decks.

[Melwis]

What makes Bitterblossom worth playing in Suicide Black? To me it seems the card is just way to slow to be worth the slots. I see some people are including 4 Meekstone in their list to make the deck more control oriented, is this the way to go with SB?

Also, what do you think of including 2-4 Stinkweed Imp in the list? It owns aggro-control decks, has dredge which is nice synergy with Tombstalker and flies which is awesome in a deck that runs 3-4 Jitte. The only thing that really stops it is StP and/or PtE but we run discard for a reason don't we? Besides, even if Imp does get removed that means your opponent is ignoring your other creatures which should more likely be in our favor.

[sauce]

What makes Bitterblossom worth playing in Suicide Black? To me it seems the card is just way to slow to be worth the slots. I see some people are including 4 Meekstone in their list to make the deck more control oriented, is this the way to go with SB?

Also, what do you think of including 2-4 Stinkweed Imp in the list? It owns aggro-control decks, has dredge which is nice synergy with Tombstalker and flies which is awesome in a deck that runs 3-4 Jitte. The only thing that really stops it is StP and/or PtE but we run discard for a reason don't we? Besides, even if Imp does get removed that means your opponent is ignoring your other creatures which should more likely be in our favor.

why not just play bone shredder, it dose something the turn it comes into play (ie - kills goyf) and then if you have no use for it and don't want to pay echo, it can feed your tombstalker.

[Melwis]

why not just play bone shredder, it dose something the turn it comes into play (ie - kills goyf) and then if you have no use for it and don't want to pay echo, it can feed your tombstalker.

I'm sure there are certain situations the "nonartifact, nonblack" becomes a problem, at the top of my head Tombstalker, Nought (yes he will still do 10 damage if you block with Imp but atleast he dies). Also, the Echo is not nice. With Imp you get a 1/2 with flying out that you can activate Jitte on the next turn, not possible with Shredder. And Shredder is not able to feed Tombstalker nearly as much as Imp.

More thoughts on running Stinkweed Imp in this deck?

[Melwis]

Some thoughts regarding this deck in general:

Is it worth trying to make the deck able to cast more then 1 Tombstalker each game? With 4 Tombstalker alongside 4 Confidant and the 8 fetchlands you'll want it just seems this deck becomes too suicidal since most lists want to run 4 Thoughtseize aswell...

How good is Hypnotic Specter really? In the early game it depends on Dark Ritual and when you have mana enough to cast it it's disruption won't effect your opponents that much since they will most likely have a small hand size and be able to cast the most important cards in it anyway before Specter swings. When your opponent is in topdeck mode all it really does is make your opponents instants become sorcery speed.

Most decks I see is only running 4 creature removal spells. I would argue running atleast 6 would make the deck improve overall. Perhaps the deck would be able to cut back on the Thoughtseize count then aswell.

If the answer to my first question in this post is yes (that we should devote the deck to be able to cast Tombstalker multiple times) then I see no reason why we shouldn't include Sensei's Divining Top in the list. The synergy with fetches and Confidant is good enough to include atleast 2-3 of it, maybe even 4. However Top is useless if you already have one out so I can see 4 being to many for a deck that doesn't actually rely on it like CounterTop.

Last but not least I really would like to hear more opinions on Stinkweed Imp in the deck. Serving as a sort of creature removal, fuel for Tombstalker and being able to carry Jitte it just seems like it deserves some slots.