I think he was just referring to the fact that Moat dies to Zoo's maindeck Art/Ench removal (Pridemage) while Humility does not.Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
Ok, completely irrelevant discussion. I wasn't saying Moat is good against Zoo, or that it should form our battleplan against the deck, but just that it isn't as useless as it seems. I think Humility is even worse against that deck, but anyway, completely irrelevant discussion.
Let's go back talking about Moat in general in this field, or what other options would be better.
DCI L1 Judge, admin of www.BeNeLegacy.nl and member of Team Nijmegen (T.N.T.=Team Nijmegen Tendrils).
Moat is a solid card; however there is simply too much hate in the current metagame for moat to truly be succesfull. Virtually all thresh models play some kind of grip/ qasali count, and humility is simply put stronger in virtually every scenario.
To the people who gripe that they can still have lots of 1/1's, you could just as easily say the slot could easily be the third wrath (Not my favorite use of this slot.) You could also say that you have taken all their creatures out but 1-2, which is generally what happens. So you take 2 damage instead of 6 netting you 4 life of damage, and basicly stalling the game until you can recover. Yes you can still get burned out, yes it's not an easy matchup, but if you play it smart it's not as tough as people make it out to be. For zoo to be strong it means they need to stay on the offensive tempo, if they spend one turn in the early-midgame burning you that tends to be enough of a momentum to push landstill into getting wish/answering the board ect. It's all about the timing.
Not to mention how stupid pulse of the fields now is in the zoo matchup. Seriously. This weekend I played 3 games against a solid zoo list, and I stalled him out with my life total below 5 in two of those games and rode Pulse to victory.
Someone asked why I didn't run crucible. This isn't true. I run it in the sb. It's at best in most matchups when it comes in from the side I've found over extensive testing. For referance of my current list:
4 flooded
2 polluted
4 tundra
1 U sea
1 Scrub
3 plains
3 island
3 mishra's
1 ruins
1 dust bowl
3 BS
3 Still
3 Top
1 jace
4 stp
3 ee
2 wog
1 humility
4 fow
4 snare
2 CS
2 elspeth
2 decree
2 wish
1 nev disk
1 Vindicate
SB:
1 pulse
1 pate
1 E tutor
1 Cruc
2 Relic
3 EP
3 path
3 Negate
You'll notice from my last list:
-1 Relic
-1 Vendillion
+1 snare
+1 vindicate
I also cut r2d from the board and added the second relic. You have to have atleast 2 relic's between main and sideboard. Safe players play with 3 but I almost never play against ichorid so im ok with 2. I feel like the ichorid matchup is easily winnable as well with plague and path comming in from the side + relics.
Vindicate just seems like the current thing for me again. It's been usefull but it's at it's best for me when it's a random good draw, and while I can see it's usefullness against other decks as well as a removal spell I really consider it EE number 4 and counterspell number 3 in most matchups. This should make the difference in the counterbalance matchup to make it truly unbalanced preboard.
I meant that Moat sucks against all utility creatures while humility does not.
I take it out for g2 against all red aggro strategies except for goblins but moat isnīt great too. You can never cast it on turn 4 except youīve killed mots of their creatures before, or maybe thats only my feeling?
DCI: 68 10 43 34
Don't you worry about the low blue count or hasn't it been a problem for you?
Moat just doesn't provide the cover you need. A lot of the blue meta is beginning to swap over from running Counterbalance to running Pridemage. It's happening slowly, but it's going to happen in the end and you see it now when you go to tourneys. Counterbalance comes out for Pridemage, maybe to the sideboard initially but probably out of the deck completely before the transition is done. Then SDT becomes a meta slot where you can put in wishes and extra counters and even sweepers that most blue decks don't have in the main like a singleton disk as an option.
Everybody is trying to figure out how to make space for the 4th spell snare. A lot of people are trying to integrate a wishboard. Some would like to find room for at least a singleton disk alongside etutor in the wish board. Very few people want to give up Daze and go more midrange. The answer, which has become a bit more obvious since pridemage surfaced, is that CounterTop takes up a lot of slots in the average deck that uses it. When it was relatively invulnerable game one that was a very good trade-off of slots for game one wins. Now that there is a commonly played 2-drop that can pin it in your hand it becomes worth less than it was.
I might play 3Tops in my upcoming weekend tourney but I think 2 Top is enough in an established meta. There were times where I wanted to see Top every game (every time I don't see top, I want to see top) but there were games where seeing the 2nd Top is annoying and disheartening.
I'm definitely bringing 2 Vindicate in the MD in an established meta. The fact that Vindicate allows you to unanswer certain permanents and saving your FOW against more critical targets while you let some spells slip past and deal with it later is crucial in Landstill's gameplan. Not to mention that Vindicate provides another form of removal if StP/Path gets Chaliced/pated or your EE gets needled so you cannot get out of Chalice, Vindicate would be a life saver.
I played with 6 StP lists and found that to be one of the strongest Landstill lists, since it resolves Standstill very fast and consistently in the early games by StPing turn 1 threats and dropping turn 2 Standstills. However, in a more developed meta, I'll drop to 3 Standstill just to avoid them being dead against Zoo/Vial decks or aggressive aggro that are becoming popular. As a result of not resolving Standstill as easily as before in 6 StP builds, you generally drop StP number 5-6 as well, knowing that StPs become dead if your opponent resolves Countertop or Chalice until you can find EE or an answer.
Vindicate does not let you resolve Standstill as fast, but it provides for another alternative free-hate way of dealing with hate on your precious removal suite. Vindicate lists are slightly slower than 6StP lists, but are much flexible and I prefer 2 Vindicates in a meta of counterbalance and various decks. 2-3 Paths in the SB can be boarded in easily against non-Countertop decks e.g. Zoo to easily win the aggro matchup.
I'm going to be testing 3 Wishes instead of 2. Cunning Wish has always shined in my matches, with 20% of them being win-more situations. I do think that MTutor as the 3rd Wish would be more ideal in Wish/Vindicate hybrid lists. I'll post my list up soon. Will be prepping this Thursday with friends for the upcoming Waco tournament. I have been doing pretty well with my Wish/Vindicate hybrid list and I've made Top2/4 in the last 3 tourneys (we have a small group though) but playing the deck makes me realize that Landstill is a deck of decisions and card quality. Quantity really doesn't matter, and it's all about a deck of resource management and utilizing the spells at the right time (quoting Moss: your timing needs to be right, this is very true how UWb Landstill plays out). The reason why I feel Wish/Vindicate hybrid builds are strong is the huge versatility. Vindicate is not dead against combo/non-aggro whereas Speedstill's Smothers/Edict/Paths are. Depending on the meta, 6StP builds are stronger and faster, but in an unknown field, I think that Hybrids will fare much better in game 1, and game 2/3s you can always bring in the extra Paths to punish aggro decks.
I don't understand why people are advocating Moat. Moat would be viable without Pridemage but decks now pack these tight in UGw builds (Thresh or Survival). Humility shuts all CiP down, and stops Trygon/Harmonic Sliver where Moat does not. Moat does not stop Tombstalkers from stealing games, a creature which Landstill is fearful of if you don't have StP or Wrath. Humility has much more synergy with Elspeth whereas Moat doesn't really and you can get 2 for 1ed if they bolt the pumped soldier you send in. It makes Elspeth more narrow. Moat makes Factories bad without elspeth, and really doesn't do as much as Humility does. Both get gripped hence causing potential game losses, but one dodges creature-based hate e.g. Pridemage and Trygon. I'll take Humility anyday.
Moss, how is three tops working out? What do you do when you draw multiple? Try to Brainstorm it back into the library and fetch-shuffle it away? I love the idea, but drawing too many instead of board answers makes me nervous.
@ A few pages ago. I typed when I was exhausted, and did not explain each of my points fully. I think you took me too literal as being close minded to red. I like Burning Wish too, and combined with the power of REB out of the board you have a convincing argument for red splash. My argument against Firespout is I would rather have a 4CC kill all creatures (WoG) instead of a 3CC kill all creatures but that 3/4 Goyf. (Assuming it's midgame. A T2 Bwish into T3 Firespout is sexy vs most aggro decks.) Then again you could Bwish for a WoG, so they both fill a role.
Vindicate has saved my ass too much to turn my back on black. I hope one day we get a U/R or W/R vindicate type spell, but I highly doubt it. Vindicate is just that needed to get out of tight spots.
I'll refrain from painting with broad brushstrokes in the future, and discuss points only when I have time to explain things fully.
I don't have to tell anyone here how powerful top is. I've tested all the combinations (1,2,3,4,) and 3 with the help of Gustha we found 3 to be the most successful.Moss, how is three tops working out? What do you do when you draw multiple? Try to Brainstorm it back into the library and fetch-shuffle it away? I love the idea, but drawing too many instead of board answers makes me nervous.
Yes occasionally you do get stuck with multiple tops or dead top 3 cards, but you have to figure that you can't win every single scenario. You have 6 fetches, jace, and a number of ways to get around the inconveniance of playing additional tops. Besides that there are some matchups where playing additional permenants is not a bad thing like against smoke stax (bad example but its the best I could come up with on such short notice.)
anyways top x3 = good
I've been trying out E. Dragon and 2 Top but maybe its better off to just use 3. I've seen good arguments for both but E. Dragon just may not be needed after all. I like that the Dragon can be a late win condition if needed though.
Its a little surprising that the Top isn't used in many Landstill lists.
Top is somewhat slow, but the reason why I felt it was slow is because I was playing with no Decrees. I haven't found Top to slow me down at all, and it is important to only top in response to a spell or at the end of their turn, to save your mana for possible counter/removal. There are specific cases but if you play in that kind of style, then Top isn't a slow tool, but rather a very powerful tool. Without Top, you are really limited to Brainstorm for card quality, but Top allows you to dig every turn, one card deeper or 3 cards if you can shuffle away your stuff. There are many games where I top after my draw phase searching for an answer and found one due to multiple activations every turn. I might test out 3 Tops as well. I have quite some fetch outlet, and EDragon is good regardless if you run top. I've been very pleased with him as the 24th "land" in 61 card lists.
Having multiple Tops in play isn't that bad. Like, one can spin and the other one draws, so I don't ever see 3 Tops ever being a problem.
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"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
I could agree with this.
It's hard to fit 3 tops into Landstill. The deck only has 35-37 slots to work with at the start and it runs on the order of 9-11 counters, 10-13 removal including the sweepers, 6-8 blue card manipulation/advantage - which really need to be blue given the overall blue in the deck, 6-8 control elements to support inevitability (DoJ, ED, CW, Humility), and then Standstill. You probably need to remove Standstill to fit the tops in and then your blue count will be low enough to be a real problem.
I just posted a list to show you how you can do it. The list I believe runs 18-21 blue sources which is just fine.
It's not difficult. Your making it more then it really is. Instead think with the logic like this:
Lands: 23-24
Permission: 9-10
Draw: 10
Removal: 10-12
Utility:4
Win: 4
Your list runs 17 blue cards. 1 above the bare minimum of 16.
Co-Founder of Team Awesome - I heard Randy Buehler say a while back that good players give themselves the most number of turns to find the answer.
The Source on MTGO - Predator8785 and RockOut
You ditched a brainstorm, a counterspell and a vindicate (basically) to add 3 tops. I'm not sure that's a positive change. You have a better chance to sort things out early, but with spell snare and stp you really don't want to tap out to drop SDT on turn 1, then on turn 2 you'd really like to keep two mana open to at least bluff a counterspell, even if your chances of having one are a third less than they'd otherwise be. You also don't have as much leverage to do the drop a fetch, drop a fetch thing that messes with a lot of aggro control attempts to dictate tempo early.
I guess I can see where top makes the deck a bit stronger in the mid game, but I think it weakens the position overall until you get there and I don't think Landstill wants to do that.
Adding two tops (and I'm considering adding a 3rd) considerably helped my matchup against Merfolk and that tempo-thresh-like dreadstill list I constantly complain about. In your first 10 cards, you usually see 4 lands, and when they stifle/waste two of them (denying you dual lands and therefore both of your main colors) it's really, really ugly. Being able to look for lands anywhere in your top 3 cards rather than just your top card is really, really helpful.
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