Are we really pointing out that discard is bad in the mid to late game? Like, does that actually warrant posts? I kind of thought that was something that everybody just knew.
People play discard because it's really good. In general, but even moreso in a deck where a large part of your success hinges on resolving a single card. While most Survival builds don't run anything to actually hunt up Survival (E.Tutor and to a lesser degree Top do this), we run discard and Witness to ensure we get the ones we do draw on to the board.
Discard is good against absolutely everything. Seriously. You need discard to fight combo. You need discard to fight control. You need discard to fight graveyard hate.
I'm not saying RGW versions of Survival aren't viable, but you'd better be packing something else to compensate, like Aether Vial.
Originally Posted by majikal
Discard is bad in the mid to late game and survival is not a fast deck. Survival is not winning on tempo but card advantage. I don't see why adding cards that are dead draws in the late game is necessary. I can see run 4 discard spells b/c they are ok but 7 or 8? Most decks out there have deck manipulation such as brainstorm or top that can get rid of situational cards. Survival has none so situational cards should be kept to a miniumum.
EDIT: on a different note has anyone tried out lord of extiction? it seems interesting.
Discard is one of the parts of the deck that makes it viable. I challenge you to find a control or thresh opponent who won't blow you out with tempo or counters if you have no way to dictate what they do with their hand. This really isn't even worth discussing, you can test it if you want, but please stop bringing it up on the boards, its a waste of time.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
Completely agreed. Discard is a monster. I'd never go below six main. Black is the second most important color in this deck, in my opinion.
Which is more important, 4x Cabal Therapy 2x Thoughtseize or vice versa?
Also, is a GBr version of the deck possible?
GBr is totally possible, This is a slightly old by dave price
Mainboard:
1 Genesis
2 Shriekmaw
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Anger
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Big Game Hunter
4 Eternal Witness
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Burning Wish
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Birds of Paradise
5 Forest
4 Bayou
4 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Spike Feeder
1 Pyroclasm
1 Primal Command
1 Gleeful Sabotage
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Cabal Therapy
Ingot Chewer seems better than Tin Street Hooligan.
Also is adding white for Wrath in the Wishboard and Wispmare that bad?
Yes. The only reason to add white is Swords. And (I suppose) Teeg, Cannonist, and a hundred other little cards that aren't necessary. Swords is the only really big thing missing without white.
The E.P.I.C. Syndicate: I mean, if they play a lullaby for babies they should at least play the Monster Mash when somebody dies.
I still prefer the RGBSA build. I really never got into the white splash. As for splashing white for wrath, why would'nt you just want to play damnation? Pyroclasm or rough/tumble are much better sweepers for this deck anyway, as they are easier to wish up and play on the same turn.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
The Seize/Therapy split depends on your creature base, I think. Thoughtseize is better if you're going the heavy evoke route. Therapy's better if you run things like Tin Street, Harmonic, Kitchen Finks, etc. I run a 4 Seize/3 Therapy split main, and when I experimented with running only 6, ran a 3/3 main with 1 of each in the sideboard.
RGB is completely possible. Around here it's more common than RGBW, actually.
Ahh, Legacy tournaments are back. Won a small swiss today with Survival and didn't even drop a game. Went 2-0 against Ichorid, 2-0 against Rock, 2-0 against Goblins, and 2-0 against Landstill.
The following was my list:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
4 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Forest
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Anger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Shriekmaw
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Loxodon Hierarch
SB:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Pithing Needle
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Cabal Therapy
I cut a Taiga for a Forest since postboard I often don't even need red at all in the deck.
Pridemage replacing Wispmare came strictly because I knew I wasn't facing Counterbalance all day. Similarly, some of my board choices were based on the metagame. Needle was fantastic in the metagame, which was largely control and tribal decks. It won me a game against Landstill by shutting off Jace and won me a game against Goblins by shutting off Wasteland.
The things I learned today:
1. I'm still torn between Kitchen Finks and Hierarch. Kitchen Finks was good against everything I played except Ichorid. Hierarch randomly saved me in one of the games against Ichorid where Finks wouldn't have. Finks probably earned my maindeck slot today, though.
2. Engineered Plague is good. In a couple random practice games beforehand, I trashed Merfolk with it, using STP and Shriekmaw to keep the Lords at bay as best I could. It wrecked Goblins. It helped against Ichorid in practice, though I never saw one in the real tournament.
3. Pithing Needle is intriguing in Survival's sideboard. Stopping Wasteland, Vial, Deed, and EE are all nice, as was shutting off a Jace Beleren on a clear board.
I'll make changes to the board and detail the matches tomorrow when I'm halfway coherent.
What are everyone's thoughts on playing Burning Wish and a wishboard for further specializing your deck for certain matchups while not hurting the others, or the random jank matchup?
Giant Growth - not just lurking anymore
Closet noob.
Team Battletoads
(not affiliated with combat amphibians)
Gratz for your finish, Taco. Im looking forward to your detailed breakdown, if possible
I was wondering a few things:
-so you replaced Blitz with Needle? Is a singleton Needle enough, with no means to find it? I personally like Blitzy more, but im easily distracted by cool things so i cant really judge that.
I know that needle is a bit more versatile and shuts more than just planeswalkers, so its good as it is.
-do you like the manabase as it is now? i find it a bit too nonbasic for my taste and i would play one more basic swamp/plains, at least in SB or sth like that.
Ive been raped by mana denial a bit too often, but i havent played Survival since lorwyn came out and dont really know my meta, but i would guess its still polluted with Stifles , CB and Wastwelands.
-would you replace Pridemage with Wispmare if you were playing in a CB enviroment? Did you ever fetch Quasali because of exalting your Goyfs (creatures).
I play some version of The Rock(http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27590) at the moment and they really shine there because of the Vial
-could you go through sideborarding choices, on play and on the draw? Maybe gameplan also (in short) against tier decks.
I would like to know about Ichorid boarding, how do you play it in 1st game and after boarding. Seems amazing that they can be beatable 1st game
(well, kinda know t1 Ichorid only, i guess its legacy counterpart is a bit slower).
-is CB/top still pain in the behind as it was? Okay, i played Burning Wishes back there, so i kinda begged to get pwnd by resolved CB because of many 1cc/2cc cards,
but thresh variants (or what they became now) used to be the decks we prey on, right?
- i find myself often drawing suboptimal hands with lots of nonbasics and particular toolbox creatures that just fold in against some decks.
Is it a keeper if i have mana, witness and a random tool (like Anger), but no discard or BoP? It bugs me cause i cant just sit on nonbasics for a couple of turns, just begging bad stuff to happen.
-How good is the deck in finding threats (like Survival, Goyf, Witness) when in topdecking mode?
Keep it up!
I've been running the RGBSA build with wish for over a year. I like it alot because it can give you lock pieces like primal into witness and lock an opponent out. It's just another win condition that you can have if you don't draw survival.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
why isnt tradewind rider/tropical island/fow version more popular?
My 12 Post Videos - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...Q65OWRL5my7utn
Brief summaries of the games from what I remember.
Round 1 - Jason w/ Ichorid.
Game 1: I keep the 7, he mulligans to 6 and keeps. I lead with a land, Bird, armed with a Survival and a Therapy in hand. He leads with Land, Breakthrough for 0, and ends up with a Troll, an Imp, two bridges, and an Ichorid in the yard. Could be worse, as I have Therapy flashback available and can always get Survival going if I topdeck a creature. I do. It's Loaming Shaman. He doesn't recover.
Game 2: Opening hand of three land, two survivals, witness, tarmogoyf. I sigh at the pretty cards and toss it back. My six has five land and a Swords. My five card hand is Bayou, Savannah, Survival, Ingot Chewer, Squee. I decide to pray his hand is slow and try to get a Macabre, knowing I've got game three if I fail. Jason's gone down to 5 also. He goes land, LED, Breakthrough, and I cringe, but he doesn't have a dredger. I untap, get a Heath, grab Taiga, and eat his Diamond and his Bridge. I then get a Loaming Shaman two turns later. Jason somehow recovers by topdecking Diamond and Breakthrough and nearly kills me off of it, but I manage to slow it down with Macabre. I save myself from being overrun with flying Narcomoebas by Hierarching from 3 back up to 7, then I manage to gradually STP them off while doing a Macabre/Genesis thingy. Goyfs get through.
Round 2: Chase w/ Rock.
Game 1: I get a Survival, he Living Wishes for Faerie Macabre. He ends up destroying my Survival, I knock the draw out of his hand. We get into threat topdeck mode. He gets two Tarmogoyfs. I STP one and drop a Goyf of my own, which gets STP'd. I topdeck Shriekmaw, hardcast it, and it somehow goes the distance.
Game 2: Extirpate keeps me off Squee and Genesis. then a Deed wrecks the board. We get into topdeck mode again. I get lots of Witnesses, a Goyf, STP, and Kitchen Finks to lead the charge and it's enough.
Round 3: David w/ RB Goblins
Game 1: I win the die roll. He starts with Gemstone Caverns. I Thoughtseize away a Lackey, get Survival down turn two, and go to town on his Vial. He gets only a Matron off a Ringleader, then next turn plays it for either another Ringleader or a Siege-Gang (I forget which). In one turn I manage to abuse Rofellos for two Tarmogoyfs, a Witness on Thoughtseize, and a Seize to take the big guy out of his hand. He topdecks Vials and loses.
Game 2: I mull to a five of Bayou, Heath, Therapy, Plague, Witness. He leads with Lackey. I Therapy him blind for Siege-Gang, miss, and he's got only a Ringleader, but he's got Wastelands in hand. Ugh. He goes Vial, Needle Survival, swing, drop the Ringleader, three misses and a Warchief. I untap and topdeck the Pithing Needle. Land, Needle on Wasteland. Next turn comes down a Plague to stabilize. Two turns later, Plague #2 shows up.
Round 4: Lucas w/ Landstill
Game 1: I lose the die roll and take Standstill with a blind Therapy. Two Survivls and a Witness in hand overwhelm his capacity for counters, and he doesn't hit any more draw. I steamroll him.
Game 2: Don't remember much about this game other than that I held back a turn one Needle in case he got a Jace. He got a Jace, I needled it. He draws a lot of lands and beats me down to around 6 with Factories, but I pull it out with Survival.
Probably not if I'm relying on finding it, but I'm really not relying on finding it. I never have the same sideboard twice with this deck and kind of piece it together every time I'm about to take the deck into action based on what I want to face. 2 would be the max I would ever run in Survival. I like shutting off Wasteland, Vial, Deed, Planeswalkers, etc. It's heavily a metagame call though and I'm not advocating it yet.
I compensate for this by running 22 lands, 4 Birds, Rofellos, Quirion Ranger, and a lowass curve. I drop a few games to mana hate, but I think I'd drop more if I screwed with the base. Quirion Ranger guards against Wasteland, Birds are useful to fetch if I need a color I'm lacking, and I'll unapologetically get fetchlands/duals with Witness if I get to three mana. So yeah. I'm pretty happy with it. Going up to 22 land was the best thing I ever did.-do you like the manabase as it is now? i find it a bit too nonbasic for my taste and i would play one more basic swamp/plains, at least in SB or sth like that.
Ive been raped by mana denial a bit too often, but i havent played Survival since lorwyn came out and dont really know my meta, but i would guess its still polluted with Stifles , CB and Wastwelands.
No and no. And if I expected a CB-heavy meta I'd be packing more Grips in board. I did a total of 1 extra point of damage from Exalted the whole tournament, just because I was smart enough to get my swing in before blowing up the Pridemage (Can't remember what at.)-would you replace Pridemage with Wispmare if you were playing in a CB enviroment? Did you ever fetch Quasali because of exalting your Goyfs (creatures).
It's beatable just because it doesn't always do the jesus draw thing. And lucksacking the Loaming Shaman helped. Game 1 is still bad against Ichorid. And I'm probably going to go up to three Macabres in board.I would like to know about Ichorid boarding, how do you play it in 1st game and after boarding. Seems amazing that they can be beatable 1st game
(well, kinda know t1 Ichorid only, i guess its legacy counterpart is a bit slower).
I boarded as follows: +4 Plague, +2 Macabre, +1 Cabal Therapy, +1 Ingot Chewer. Can't remember what all I boarded out, but I remember boarding out the Thoughtseizes because I was on the draw, making a mental note to bring them back in if it got to game three. I have lots of Evoke guys to help with Bridges, the Macabres to slow them down early on or be decent with Genesis late game, the Loaming Shaman to just completely reset them, and the Plagues to stop Illusions and Horrors. It's a lot of small nuisances. and in no way do I claim to have a great Ichorid matchup. Macabres help, though.
Well, the nice thing about the deck is that you can board out all irrelevant tools game 2, reducing the chances of this happening greatly. Depending on the matchups, I'll sometimes board out Genesis or Anger.i find myself often drawing suboptimal hands with lots of nonbasics and particular toolbox creatures that just fold in against some decks.
Is it a keeper if i have mana, witness and a random tool (like Anger), but no discard or BoP? It bugs me cause i cant just sit on nonbasics for a couple of turns, just begging bad stuff to happen.
-How good is the deck in finding threats (like Survival, Goyf, Witness) when in topdecking mode?
Mulliganing depends on the matchup a lot of times, and in the hand you illustrated, it depends on what else you have. Five land, Witness, and Anger is a definite toss. Three land, Witness, Anger, Swords, Ingot Chewer? Not great, but it depends on your matchup. Anger and Squee and Genesis aren't always dead in your hand. I use Squee to chump and flash Therapies a lot, and I've been known to go aggro with Anger and Genesis. But in general? You don't want to see these guys clogging up your opening hand.
Basically, if you don't think your seven is good enough to win, throw it back. Losing on a bad seven and Mulliganing into oblivion both end in the same result. The latter gives you a chance to get a miracle six or five, though.
Too slow. You need Tradewind+2 guys to start bouncing. It helps if it's Seedborn Muse so you can have extra activations (During your turn and during theirs). So you're already looking at a large mana investment of 4UUGG+X(Usually BOP?).
Yeah Rofellos and BOP speed it up, but STP on your TR and there goes your combo. It was fine years ago. But things change.
I'm missing something. Why Loaming Shaman?
Yay! I like this question.
1. Loaming Shaman is a complete, customizable assault on an opponent's graveyard. It can take everything if you want to keep a deck off of Threshold. It can virtually reset Ichorid (If, obviously, you live long enough). It can shut opponents off getting much use out of things like Eternal Witness. It lets you control Tarmogoyf size if your opponent has more of them than you do. It takes rogue flashback cards like Cabal Therapy, Call of the Herd, or Chainer's Edict away. It prevents Hellspark Elemental from recurring. It just hits tons and tons of random shit.
2. It's on color.
3. It gives you a body while it's doing this. This is very crucial.
4. In a complicated, roundabout way, it's actually good -against- graveyard hate. For example, it's not a very uncommon thing to have Squee, Genesis, or both knocked out of my yard, leaving me relying solely on Eternal Witness for card advantage. This can result in some neat stuff, as later in games you can Witness for a Witness for a Witness for whatever you need, etc. But four Witnesses can't recur everything. Against control or in any game that goes into a late game, Loaming Shaman can actually put all the Witnesses or relevant search targets back in your library.
5. If you don't get Survival game 1 and don't need the graveyard hate, it's better and easier to cast than Faerie Macabre.
Now, in matchups where I actually feel the need to board in graveyard hate, this generally means I want it to be fast and free. That means Faerie Macabre, and I keep switching between 2 and 3 copies depending on what I expect to face. So Macabre lives in by board en masse and Shaman lives in my maindeck.
Same list, other question, why loxodon hierarch? What does he bring in your board? I myself am a huge fan of Kitchen Finks in that position due to the fact that he mostly gains 4 life, like hierarch is much better with therapy, can chump goyf twice, is much easier to cast with rofellos, but has a power less and cant regenerate your board (but I can't say I have ever been in a position to use that)
Last edited by Black Mass; 08-04-2009 at 04:12 PM. Reason: punctuation
Currently playing and testing:
Faerie Stompy
Bant Survival
UW Tempo
Zoo
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
