[Deck] Ultimate Walker

[Romanus]

Klaus,

Do you notice having trouble finding blue cards to pitch to force? How do you fare vs merfolk with that list? (I ask because stifle on AV is meh) I like that list a lot.

[klaus]

Romanus.

17 U cards is the bare minimum incl. FOW. The MD has 18 - obviously it could have a higher U count. Against combo it can be upped to 23 though (+3 MM +2 BEB). The one flex slot is the 2nd Crucible which can easily be replaced with the 4th BS.

The Merfolk MU might not be favorable, but (since you're active over at the LS thread, too) Ultimate Walker (actually that name should always be capitalized to emphasize its Hulkishness), so ULTIMATE WALKER might fare better against Merfolk than the common LS lists.
This is due to REB, more removal, and the fact that Standstill is not a dead card. That being said, I'd most likely board out 1-2 Visions against most aggro.decs.
-
Sidenote..
@ Stifling Visions: More and more Nervfolk lists drop Stifle

[Nessaja]

I just played against the deck on MWS, I have to say that Helix is a very strong addition to the arsenal. I'm not so sure if boarding out Visions is that good of an idea though, you will need the card advantage against aggro in order to win.

[Enigma]

I'm not sure about removing a land, but I have to say I like Firespout and Helix a lot. I'll test this as soon as I have time to.

Thanks Klaus for this serious option.

P-M

[Romanus]

Thanks Klaus. I really dig your build, and I think it plugs holes that the first list had. I tested Yan's first list and was stomped by fast aggro so I went limping back to landstill. Your list has strong sweepers and extra spot removal with helix. I will start testing it tonight

[godryk]

I do love Klaus' approach: I think this deck has a well-defined set of powerfull lategame bombs that ensure certain lategame domain such as AV, Planeswalkers, EE+Ruins and Crucible of Worlds.

The rest of the deck should focus on not only surviving but also keeping a decent game-state against fast aggro, during the first few turns, which will be critical. IMHO, things like Forbid, Tolaria or Cunning Wish were kind of win-more cards.

[klaus]

I'm not sure about removing a land, but I have to say I like Firespout and Helix a lot. I'll test this as soon as I have time to.

Thanks Klaus for this serious option.

P-M

You might be correct about that land.
I have the feeling it should be 23 considering 1 Crucible gets moved to the board.
Fixed.

[Koby]

I think the Helix build definitly plugs hole that were prior leaky, such as a heavy dependence on 4cc bombs: Wrath, Planeswalkers, Moat/Humility. Firespout definitly helps out a ton against all the situations where Wrath of God would be necessary, allowing StoP to take care of the larger threats of Goyf and Tombstalker. It also carries an easier mana requirement (3 mana, 1 colored) vs WoG (4 mana, 2 colored). This is a huge difference that should be considered.

[Sam]

I like the tweak that some of you are giving to this deck. I saw Yan played it oftenly and I always argue with him about the lack of BS in his list... Basically, he said that BS doesn't create card advantage and in his orginal design he went for card density over card selection... I still think it's the wrong path to follow, but he's making results with his list.

Llightning helix seems good, but can't replace hiself as F/I does, it's not blue and can't do some nice 2 for 1 tricks... But I admit it will help alot against fast aggro.

In Klaus' list I would add a single tropical island as the 23rd mana source. It gives a possible wrath for the fliers with Firesprout and allows EE at 4.

Also, why is the plainwalker creew always featuring 2 Elspeth (some people argue for 3!)? I know it can be an offending suggestion, but I would try to drop to 1. I know Elspeth is a game breaker, it wins game by herself and it's your main kill condition... I saw her in action and love it. But it's an awfull draw in the early game and she needs a good board position to be effective.

The way I see the game plan of this deck is surviving to the early game (either by killing or countering treaths) than you stabilize and begin to create more CA than you oponent and then you can think about winning...

In that scenario a second Ajani seem better suited to me. it fit perfectly in the mid-game plan, will be an expensive Helix if the board is not favorable and can also wins game by himself... Anyway, you'll draw Elspeth later or go for the factory beatdown... I'm not saying it's the right configuration but I think it worths a test session.

Finally, I want to advocate for Ancestral Vision. I was also skeptical when I saw Yan playing it for the first time, but I most admit that it's one of the most underated draw engine in the format. The only playable thing that can generate as much CA is Fact or Fiction. FoF is a clumsy 4cc spell. You need to tap mana to play it Vision is more vulnerable but easier to protect and give you a smoother curve... There's no real choice here imo.

[nodahero]

So i recently picked up this deck and have been testing it fairly aggressively. My main two questions (due primarily to lack of testing agaisnt compitent pilots for these decks) is what do we do against Counter-top and the Folk? and less importantly what about agaisnt decks like ANT? I have played storm combo for years and know from personal expiernce that MMAGE dosn't cut it against storm? Is this one of those luck sac into a win or die matches?

If I were to opt into the 23rd land (trop) that swaping dismantling blow for K-Grip is a good swap? or is the kicker important enough to keep it in for the CA?

Is it possible that swapping the one of top and counterspell for something more consistent such as to Fire/Ice would be beneficial or possibly a fourth brainstorm and the 2ns crucible? I cut the second crucible for the second firespout.

Lastly, What is the correct play with Jace? If the coast is clear on the third turn do i run her out with no force in hand? or do i sit and wait till i can make sure she resolves with protection? Also should we immediately do the +2 ability to circumvent a bolt or do we just wana start doing the -1 off the bat?

Thanks for all of your help guys I really enjoy this deck and look foreword to your thoughts.

[Romanus]

Mmmmm, Klaus you are brilliant. Tested heavily against Zoo tonight. It's a semi favorable match with landstill, but Ultimate Walker v2.klaus could not be touched. AV blew up lands, Helix melted everything and I would have only traded Spout for wrath one time vs a 4/5 Goyf. Ended all my games (9 of them, more to follow) at 15+ life.

Next on my testing list is vs Goblins and mono red burn. Not major decks in the format, but have given me problems in the past.

Thanks again Klaus.

[Koby]

Burn is easily mitigated with Goldmane. That 'walker is a HOUSE against the monored lists. :)

[klaus]

If I were to opt into the 23rd land (trop) that swaping dismantling blow for K-Grip is a good swap? or is the kicker important enough to keep it in for the CA?

Of course Grip came to mind when Tropical was mentioned. However, to really be able to maintain 3 SB Grips we'd need to at least run 2 green sources which would unnessecarily weaken the manabase. I'm not positive yet, whether Blow is the right call - it's got the right CMC though and does it's CA thing at times.

Is it possible that swapping the one of top and counterspell for something more consistent such as to Fire/Ice would be beneficial or possibly a fourth brainstorm and the 2ns crucible? I cut the second crucible for the second firespout.

There are few cards out there that are more consistent and reliable than Counterspell and I daresay there is not a single spell that reads "consistency" more than Top.

Lastly, What is the correct play with Jace? If the coast is clear on the third turn do i run her out with no force in hand? or do i sit and wait till i can make sure she resolves with protection? Also should we immediately do the +2 ability to circumvent a bolt or do we just wana start doing the -1 off the bat?

There are pretty straight forward rules of thumb for playing Jace correctly:
You go straight 3-2-1-0 against:
- Combo
- Burn
- Sligh (unless the board is clear and your life total is good and he doesn't hold more than 3 cards, I'd say then could go: 3-2-1-3)
---------------
You go 3-2-1-3 (+repeat) against:
- most of other archetypes, given the gamestate allows for the cycle
---------------
You go 3->5... when:
- you're staring down a 1/1 or 2/2 or (or even 3/3 if you have the means to remove them the turn after [EE etc.])
- especially so if you're under pressure.
---------------
Obviously you'll cast him and go 3-2 if you're in trouble and he's your only feasible play.
Example: you're at 9 life, facing a 4/5 Goyf with merely land in play and no removal in hand. Either he'll draw an attack, thus cycling for 4 life or he'll draw you at least 2 cards and eventually find you that out.

There is some more strategic knowledge regarding Jace that is rather subtle and really gamestate-specific but from a certain degree onwards it's mostly playstyle and experience.

[Enigma]

Never forget his last ability. Against Control, it's purely good. So I would add to Klaus' analysis:

3->5->7... against:
Any control deck.

Against CB:Spell snare prevent it but Engineered Explosives is the main weapon we have against it, and it's a pretty good one. In the orignal list, we also have Wish-> Dis blow

Against Folk: 8 spots removal is good (Like Canadian thresh). E.E. recursive is a house once again. Mishra's and Decree makes their standstill not as efficient. I've never seen Yan losing against this MU and I'm pretty sure it's favorable.

P-M

[heroicraptor]

I just played against this with Death Baron's Panty Raid, and Helix was a great--and unexpected--combat trick.

[MTG-Fan]

Is the matchup generally in favor of this deck, or in favor of the Death Baron deck?

[heroicraptor]

Is the matchup generally in favor of this deck, or in favor of the Death Baron deck?

Well, I did win 2-0, but that trick almost won the first game for him, I just had a Graveborn Muse and was able to recover well. Second game, he popped Elspeth's ult, but I was still able to swarm around blockers. He didn't cast any sweepers, but commented about not seeing Firespouts.

[Enigma]

I'm currently testing Klaus' version with these changes:

-1 Top
-2 Path to exile
-1 Polluted delta
-1 Crucible of worlds

+1 Tolaria West
+1 Tundra
+1 Tropical Island
+2 Counterspell

->Blue cards are back to 20.
->Now have 23 lands + 1 West
->Permission up to 11

I'm still not sure if it's better than the Original list (the one with 3 Jaces and 4 E.E), but it still needs to be tested out.

P-M

[nodahero]

With GenCon starting in just over 7 days I have put alot of thought into my deck list for worlds. Usually I have my deck of choice for any format narrowed down to at least a play style such as aggro, combo, or control. However past experiences with Worlds has lead me to believe that there really is no ideal deck to play due to the large diversity of decks which have always shown up. For this years worlds I am fully capable of playing Merfolk, CounterSlivers, any Storm list, Ultimate walker, and Ichorid.

While I am fairly well versed in each of the above decks it appears that each one has a very large flaw and thus so far am leaning towards ultimate walker. If you guys would be so kind as to point out any thing that seems false or anything off that would be awesome. After my quick annalysis I will then explain why these thoughts lead me to ULTIMATE WALKER.

Merfolk-- Weak against Zoo and the probability of alot of mirror matches due to cost and efficiency are deterrents

CounterSlivers-- The deck basically died with the advent of the M10 rules plain and simple not to mention Slivers 8 lords cannot really compete against the 'Folks 12

Storm-- My main issue with this list is the instability of the mana base due to such a large collection of duals and Mines. While this is likely a very good deck assuming good mulligan skills I really don't wana deal with Chant wars from the mirror.

Ichorid-- My biggest issue with Ichorid is the inherent weaknesses associated with games 2 and 3. Grave hate is far to common place in almost any given deck that I really do not want to run it.

From my perspective ULTIMATE WALKER has a few big bonuses for playing it. The first bonus is the lack of wide knowledge. With such a small following it seems likely I will pull off alot of easy games due to my opponent having no idea what I am playing and how to play against it. Second the deck is extremely well rounded and between main and side has an extensive collection of tools to fight almost any deck in format. Third with my personal tweaks to the manabase and card pool any weaknesses to the consistency of the deck has been further reduced from Klaus' list.

For your viewing pleasure I submit to you my personal take on ULTIMATE WALKER

LANDS 22
2 Island
3 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

Consistency and Card advantage 11
4 Ancestreal Visions
3 Brainstorms
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace Beleren

Removal Package 14
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Firespout

Counters 9
4 Force of Will
4 Spellsnare
1 Counterspell

Win-Cons 4
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Decree of Justice

The major differences between Klaus' list and mine are as follows:
-2 Wastelands
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Plains
+1 Mishra's Factory
+1 Sensei's Divining Top

I choose to make these changes to reduce the overall weakness to inconsistency I experienced with the list. With the removal of Wastelands the value of Crucible also dropped off significantly. I opted for the 4th Factory to increase of threat density and our defense capabilities. The top was the next inclusion due the slow controlling nature of our list and from playing control decks for almost 8 years I have seen the advantages of consistency in drawing the preferred card as opposed to a random card particularity with excess mana at the opponents EOT phase. The extra plains was played into the deck primarily to keep the land count at 22 while also allowing for a slightly better game against Moon Men. The Plains could also have been an island but I felt access to the additional plains was more beneficial although the correct call may be the fourth Tundra.

I'm thinking that my sideboard will be:
1 Firespout
1 Lightning Helix
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Jace Belern
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wastelands
3 Relic of Progenitus

My sideboard is basically set up to allow me switch into either a more controlling deck by bringing in the walkers or the crucible Waste package or to become more attrition prone by bringing in point removal.

The last few things to think about is swapping the Counterspell for a Mana Leak and possibly adjusting the Sideboard because the 2 of Wasteland seems like a poor idea but I couldn't think of a better option... Perhaps two Mutavaults to go more aggro when under a standstill?

As always... Thoughts and comments are appreciated.

NH

[Enigma]

I think you are missing the Spell snares in this list, am I wrong?

This leads me to the fact that you would have a pain in the ass facing Combo without any SB dedicated to it. I think the 4x MM are really necessary, as even with those, the Combo MU is pretty hard. I even thought we should add Chant to make the MU easier.

P-M