[Deck] The EPIC Elf Survival

[sauce]

1 coat of arms/overrun gg's humility hard

[Nessaja]

Alternatively Garruk Wildspeaker which is a good card otherwise as well.

[beastman]

If you need a good, solid answer to humility, you really don't need to look any farther than grip. Against versions of landstill with humility it really shines. They often play other targets for it, including disk, moat explosives, or even deed. I hope these posts about playing garruck or coat of arms arent serious.

[Esper3k]

Yeah, I run 3 Grips in the board - was just trying to think if there was any way around it main, but I think we have to just settle for beating them down with hasty 1/1's :)

[HAVE HEART]

Why would you not be happy to bring in Krosan Grip against Landstill? It seems like a solid answer to a lot of their permanent disruption.

[Esper3k]

Why would you not be happy to bring in Krosan Grip against Landstill? It seems like a solid answer to a lot of their permanent disruption.

In the games I've played against Landstill, the most common form of permanent based sweeper they use is EE, which tends to get blown up immediately.

Also, if you're running Messengers, Grip further dilutes your Elf density.

Boarding in 3+ cards to deal with 1 card just seems like bad boarding to me. However, it may just be a necessary evil when dealing with Humility.

[beastman]

In the games I've played against Landstill, the most common form of permanent based sweeper they use is EE, which tends to get blown up immediately.

Also, if you're running Messengers, Grip further dilutes your Elf density.

Boarding in 3+ cards to deal with 1 card just seems like bad boarding to me. However, it may just be a necessary evil when dealing with Humility.

I usually side out at most 4 cards against any given match. Bringing out too many elves dilutes the strategy a bit too much. Against most landstill decks, I'd bring in only 3 grips, and if they're on 4 color, magus.

Choke just really isn't good enough to against most landstill decks to warrant the damage he does to messenger.

[Esper3k]

So after some heavy testing the other night against NLS, I've decided that since our combo matchup is absolutely terrible (I was 20% post board), I'm giving up my sideboard space against combo to focus more on fighting blue decks, Zoo, and red decks.

Here's the current board I'm considering:

4 Absolute Law
4 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
1 Caller of the Claw (still testing this one)
3 Pithing Needle (mainly for EE's and Deeds, possibly Qsali Pridemages or Grim Lavamancers - this needs more testing)

In shoring up the Zoo matchup, I've also considered Jittes in the board, but it might not be that good since if my creatures never get to swing, Jitte is dead. Jitte also seems better against the other tribal matchups, but we already have good matchups against those.

Thoughts?

[beastman]

Jitte seems like it should be really amazing in the board, but it has never really worked out for me. It just changes the entire way your deck plays, as you spend all your mana early dropping and equipping it, rather than building up your board. I'm still trying to figure out whether it's useable, but it just seems like another non elf card that you have to bring in.

[Esper3k]

Yeah I hear ya. I'm already mad enough at having to play Grips, Chokes, and Absolute Law in the board, but Jitte does seem great in theory especially since we have no shortage of creatures to slap it on.

I'm also playing around with a maindeck Magus of the Moon. Against the Counterbalance decks, it seems to really wreck them especially Game 1 when they're not expecting it (also, it gives you a little bit of a way out against problematic non-basic lands like Academy Ruins recurring EE/Disk).

[Kuma]

I've liked having Jitte in the board. It makes even your smallest elves really scary.

The more I play TEES, the more I realize that I don't kill my opponent with lords + swarms very often. It's usually Progenitus or Tarmogoyf + a few random elves. There's too much removal in Legacy to be able to swarm very often.

I board in Jitte so much that I think I'm going to try it in the main.

[Esper3k]

I've been testing Tarmogoyf and Vanquisher myself recently. I like Goyf over Vanquisher because Vanquisher dies to Firespout and Lightning Bolt too often for my taste.

However, I think I just don't like Goyf in the deck very much either (I had cut ESG for them) and am going back to what I was playing before with ESG.

For me, since I'm playing Mirror Entity/Symbiote, I find myself winning a lot via the Mirror Entity or multiple Lords beatdown. While Natural Order is an amazing threat, I find it gets countered quite often, so I don't win via Progenitus very often. It's still an amazing threat though, but just so crazy threatening that opponents have to save a Force for it.

I'll test Jitte this weekend and see what I think of it. Pithing Needle just seems so meh to me.

[sunshine]

Natural Order is much stronger when you're also running Goyf. I can't tell you how many times I've led with a Goyf, had it countered, and followed with NO. You need to bait more if you're NOs are getting countered too often. Just because you have 4 green mana and a dude in play doesn't mean you have to cast NO. It's ok to hold NO until you've baited out a counter with Goyf, Survival (if Progenitus > Survival in your position), or a lord.

I've actually found that Progenitus has been one of my most consistent and reliable paths to victory.

[beastman]

I've actually found that Progenitus has been one of my most consistent and reliable paths to victory.

QFT. I really didnt believe it would be that big a win-con, but it is one of the best cards in the deck, and I really cant justify playing less than 4 anymore.

[Esper3k]

Yeah I'm upping my NO count back up to 4 because it's such a beating.

For me, the problem I have with Goyf is that I can't find room for other stuff I want to put into the deck, particularly ESG's for me.

To me, against any of the non-blue decks, I want to get NO online as soon as possible, which is where ESG really makes a big difference.

[beastman]

I hate ESG. I played it in once and I really don't like it. I find that messenger works better for me. Also, I recently cut vanquisher's, and I am testing out 3 goyfs.

[Windux]

The problem with Vanquisher is, that he is a bad topdeck.
I often hold it 2-3 turns in my hand, because I have no elf or 5 mana to cast it.

[Mirrislegend]

I finally picked up my 4th Survival, and I think I'll play this deck. However, I need to check: is this deck viable without the Natural Order backup plan? Also, once you're stable on mana and established Anger and Squee, what do you do (in terms of tutoring for and playing things) next?

[beastman]

I finally picked up my 4th Survival, and I think I'll play this deck. However, I need to check: is this deck viable without the Natural Order backup plan? Also, once you're stable on mana and established Anger and Squee, what do you do (in terms of tutoring for and playing things) next?

It's not nearly as strong without order, but you might be able to get away with the original build using mirror entity and wirewood symbiote. As for what to tutor for, you really need to make that decision for yourself, either tutor for combo pieces, or just find messenger to reload, or find priest or archdruid to get massive amounts of mana.

[Esper3k]

Yeah once you get Survival with Anger/Squee, you've got quite a few options:

As Beastman said, if you're running the original infinite combo (I run this one), you can just make infinitely large elves and win.

If you're not playing the combo, or its been disrupted, you can always just start fetching Lords and go with Lord beatdown as well.

With massive mana, some people also play Wren's Run Packmaster (make craploads of wolves) or Masticore (clear your opponent's board).

NO+Progenitus just gives the deck one more method to win the game, so I'd try and pick those up as soon as I can.