I know this has been mentioned earlier in the thread a few times but I've had a lot of success with nyxathid in the negator slot. Most of the time he's at least as big as negator (sometimes bigger) and makes an enormous difference in some matchups. In particular burn and most aggro decks, which empty their hands and don't expect a 7/7 hitting the board. The main thing I see as a drawback is you can't ritual him out first turn like a negator but you don't end up losing all your permanents when he gets bolted.
Why not run..
4 Nantuko Husk
4 Negator
4 Bitterblossom
3 Dark Confidant
3 Hippie
2 Tombstalker
I run a slightly similar deck, but hey... bitterblossom & "bob" work great mixed in with ritual, or also turns when you don't get ritual they provide huge card advantage that accelerates your aggro more than it hinders IMO.
I run some fetch in my deck, but still I think 4 Tomstalker is too many. I'm considering maybe 3, but two bumping into eachother at any time is a bad bad thing.
I Also love the synergy of Nantuk Husk, Bitterblossom, and Negator. Sac'ing creatures to Husk after blockers assigned not only protects permanents from Negator (those times when you're staring down a 4/5 goyf.. but have to swing anyways >.<) but provides very good finisher.
My deck I use, I like to draw fast & play fast, I don't really like shade a lot. I mean, its a very good creature but I'm almost always sitting with more cards to play in hand and I don't like wasting a drop to pump creatures. I also run 2 Arenas, which all the more accelerates. Turn 1 Arena is very good against decks like countertop and such, you draw faster disruption and drop faster, its very good.
Does it matter that negator has trample?
Originally Posted by Tea
Very rarely, since ya don't want him to attack with the possibility of him receiving combat damage.
This is not entirely true. It's true that it doesn't really matter that Negator has trample (although it has come up more than you'd think), but that doesn't mean you shouldn't attack into your opponent's creatures. People block Negator far less than expected. It also depends on your board position. If you have the ability to sacrifice the number of permanents required, it's worth it to go in for the attack. If it leaves your opponent with an empty board, that's a good thing. Also, I've used Negator to fill my yard and drop Tombstalker in the second main phase many times.
Also, you should be running between six and eight pieces of removal. If the opponent has only one creature out, it shouldn't be hard to take it out and proceed to smash face. If the opponent has two or three creatures out, more than likely they are small (think tribal) and it is correct to attack into them. They will either let it through, or chump block leaving an empty board on both sides and a full graveyard for your Tombstalker to munch on.
About Nyxathid: He's okay. The ability to drop your creatures first turn with this deck is huge, though. I can see situations where Nyxathid would be amazing, but I can imagine more where Negator is better. The deck runs enough discard that he could work out, though. If you were to play Nyxathid, I'd run maybe 10 or 11 pieces of discard to make him more consistant. Discard is a dead draw later game, though.
well that's what I love about Nyxathid and The Rack (which I run as an additional threat that can be casted off of colorless). They turn your otherwise dead late game discard topdecks into damage. Granted neither is optimal against certain matchups but I can't afford sinkholes right now so I'm sticking with a discard-heavier version.
If you ever ritual a Negator into play, is it a smart move to keep a land or two in your hand, or just say f' it lol?
I think it's an all-in play. The opponent either has an answer in which case your odds of winning shrink to very little, or he doesn't in which case you win. Look at the DTB forum and figure out how many of those decks you'd be willing to ritual a negator in against on turn 1 if you knew you were playing them.
Tempo Thresh - no.
Zoo - no.
Aggro Loam - yes.
Vial Goblins - no.
Merfolk - maybe, but probably not.
CounterTop - yes.
Survival - yes, but it'd be a bit shaky if he drew well.
UGW/UGB Threshold - yes.
UGR Threshold - no.
Landstill - yes.
Of course not knowing what you're playing game one makes the entire proposition extremely risky given the number of decks splashing red these days.
Has anyone tried Midnight Charm with Negator. The card just seems like it was made for this deck :)
It just seems awesome, I mean you'd be able to give it first strike against multiple block weenies, take out a lackey, or mid-late game tap down an untapped Goyf and swing in. Great utility card to go with snuff out
@ Mr. Durden: I understand where you're coming from, but it's hard to explain the power of Sinkhole if you don't actually own them. I know it's a large chunk of change, but that card wins so many games that it's unbelievable. And it's amazing how excellent land destruction is when it costs two, but how crappy it is at three for this deck. If you're really interested in playing this deck, I'd recommend Sinkholes as your next investment. It may seem hard to justify, but it gives such a power boost to the deck.
@ FoolofaTook: I'd ritual in Negator against Tempo Thresh, Goblins, and Merfolk, with Goblins being the most risky. Against the two blue decks, they'd be likely to counter it, which is fine because it fuels your graveyard. I know Goblins sounds crazy, but their first turn usually consists of either Aether Vial or Goblin Lackey (or nothing), and I would definitely attack into that.
@ Mystical_Jackass: I play Diabolic Edict in the spot that Midnight Charm would go. I'll admit that first strike seems pretty amazing, especially as a combat trick. I'd have to do some testing, but Edict has proven its worth many times.
Is there really that much interest in this deck? The deck is fairly strong in the current metagame as it tromps control and is good against CounterTop.
Actually, this is the same deck as Eva Green without the green splash. Why should one play this over Eva Green? You get a mono-colored manabase, but you lose tarmogofy, krosan grip, and choke.
In my opinion this is another reason to run Negator: Ashenmoor Gouger is just worse than tarmogoyf; whereas Negator can be better sometimes, as he is a bit stronger than ashenmoor gouger and through trample the last points of damage can be dealt.
What I don’t like about midnight charm is the fact that it can be dead sometimes, so I just go with diabolic edict.
This is my version without a SB:
4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
9 swamp
4 dark ritual
4 tombstalker
4 nantuko shade
4 negator
4 hypnotic specter
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 snuff out
3 diabolic edict
That's what I'm running too, but -3 Diabolic Edict, +3 Pithing Needle; basically, the Eva Green shell with the appropriate black replacements.
IMO, there's no reason to run this over Eva Green aside from budget constraints. Goyf, Choke, Grip/Seal/Pulse, etc. is worth opening up to non-basic hate.
@Baumeister
I actually was running sinkholes that I had borrowed from a friend for a while but they always seemed lackluster. Then again that was a very different list so I should probably try them out again if I can borrow them from that guy again. At any rate I'd probably have to change my list pretty drastically because I'm running the Rack and Nyxathid right now, neither of which meld very well with an opponent who's forced to hold cards by a sinkhole. I do run Wasteland though and it's fantastic.
I totally agree. You'd need to have a legit incentive to go mono black.
Speed off the line.. maybe? Otherwise, if this deck ran something like Bitterblossom + Contamination, that may be a reason 'cause you're providing a reason to combo on black & a far superior lock to choke...
@ Tea: That's the exact decklist that I am running. The only problems I have is filling in the sideboard. This is what I have so far:
4x Engineered Plague
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Pithing Needle
3x Open Slot
I've run Duress, Cabal Therapy, Dystopia, etc. in that last slot, but nothing really fits. Maybe some more targetted removal? Null Rod could be good at this point for more game against Goblins and Countertop.
The only two reasons to run this deck over Eva Green are the stability of the mana base against opposing Wastelands and Moon effects, and the budgetary concerns. Honestly though, the decks play very similarly. Eva Green has an edge on raw power, but the mono-black version seems to have an elegance to it that wins games (not to mention that sometimes Negator is better than Tarmogoyf) and I have never been screwed by the mana base.
Unfortunately, Suicide Black isn't much faster than Eva Green - they end up killing about the same turn.
What about jitte?
I think the aggro matchup is quite tough as we are a bit suicidal. So jitte could help here.
Moreover, we could need a replacement for negator in case we face a matchup where he is bad.
Huh, I completely forgot about that card. The only aggro matchup that should be extremely difficult is Zoo since they land multiple creautres that are as big as yours. Jitte would be very helpful there. If you see more tribal aggro, then Infest might be a better choice.
Since someone mentioned Contamination and there's been some posting of lists using Meekstone what about this SBC (Suicide Black Control) version:
// Lands
4 [REW] Wasteland
16 [PT] Swamp (1)
// Creatures
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 [U] Hypnotic Specter
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [FNM] Smother
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [B] Meekstone
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [US] Contamination
Can it work?
Nice.
I really love that list, that's hilarious 'cause I was just about to mention meekstone.
I like your thinking with Smother & meekstone. Outside of the life loss & direct damage, I think that's a pretty solid build. I sorta like that new M10 Terror, MAINLY because meekstone unlike ensnaring bridge doesn't just stop them dead... they still get to swing with that 12/12 nought or 5/6 goyf, or every creature that comes into play for that matter... it doesn't stop them dead.. it just slows them down thereafter, so you might want that terror just in case your life gets too low and they're still dropping creatures, ya know.
Contamination lock is evile lol, and you are always able to sac confidant to it when your lifetotal becomes in jeopardy.
Nice.
I really love that list, that's hilarious 'cause I was just about to mention meekstone.
I like your thinking with Smother & meekstone. Outside of the life loss & direct damage, I think that's a pretty solid build.
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