This list is like bad Spanish Inquisition, only worse. I promise that you straight-up LOSE to anything with:
CB
Chalice
Trinisphere
FoW
Chant
Silence
any blue countermagic
Duress
Thoughtseize
Cabal Therapy
And, your sideboard is outrageous.
There shouldn't be a "budgetized" storm list. It takes away from what makes it good--the ability to combo through and around hate. Being one, maybe two colors isn't acceptable. Fetches are necessary. Even TES has decided that is true. So is Brainstorm.
This Program Made Possible By Storm: Brought to you by high-powered cards in all 5 colors.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
He does run alot of discard effects, and 4 Pact, though.
It's not like he doesn't have any disruption/protection whatsoever.
it's amazing how scimilar that deck is to old SI. but honestly if your looking to play "budget" combo. just play beltcher. with 4 EtW 4 beltcher main, it doesnt mulligan nearly as hard as your list with 4 situational tutors and 3 ad nausiums. of course it may require shelling out a little cash for chrome moxen, LeD's, and taiga/stomping ground. but hey you'll be on your way to having a competative legacy deck.
The problem with the list is that it's not consistently going to find AdN. Onlt 7 ways is way too few. Most lists run at least 9 plus 6 cantrips. Pretty much any hand without AdN or Intent would be a mulligan, because you can't relie on drawing it within the first 4 turns, after which you have a significant disadvantage. I think a monoblack list is possible, but i't would have to look like SI even more.
Team Nijmegen
// Bad ANT
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Diabolic Intent
4 Shield Sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker
2 Ornithopter
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
6 Swamp
You could probably get away with something like this. The key to being mono black is running both Infernal Tutor and Diabolic Intent. The deck probably wants more initial mana sources (the biggest choking point in SI) as basic Swamps and a Mox Diamond or two, but I don't honestly care enough to tune it.
If you're going to shell out for LEDs or already have them yet don't have Fetches/Duals, you should seriously be playing TES so you're not left reinventing the wheel yet again. TES has years of solid testing and writing behind it that should help you learn quite a bit. SI pretty much has what B.C., Breathweapon, and I wrote on it, sporadically, and is a completely different deck.
Anyway, problems with the list I presented (after a quick visual inspection):
Powder Keg is your out to Chalice unless you use 5c lands or some other shitty nonbasic (like painlands)
The ratio on sacrifice spells to tall men is all sorts of wrong.
You'll mull a lot with 10+ tall men in your deck.
You'll mull a lot with only 14 initial mana sources (hint: find a way to add Swamps since they're basically free (off AdN))
If you want to consistently survive a targeted discard spell (Duress, Thoughtseize, flashed back Therapy), you probably need more bombs. I would say minimum of 18 (although I think 20 is closer to 80% of having two bombs in hand). In a deck without cantrips, your own Duress+Therapy aren't nearly as scary for the enemy as that Diabolic Intent/Infernal Tutor/Ad Nauseam in hand. The 4th D.I. and then maybe a blue splash off City of Brass/Gemstone Mine/etc for 4 Mystical Tutor should help this (you don't necessary want Brainstorm if you have to run shit like Underground River for budget reasons).
P.S. Songs of the Damned is worse than Cabal Ritual and Culling the Weak. LED was played in tutor-SI because it helps offset the cost of using 2 mana tutors. If you can't afford them, you should probably look into a build with Mystical Tutor (even off 5c lands or painlands).
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Hello all, I have been playing magic for a long time, and have been involved with legacy for about 4 years now. I have just joined this site although i have been reading it for a couple months now...
Main reason for this post, i wanted to start a discussion on the sideboard. im contimplating whether or not its worth running a trop in the board so that i can also run Krosan Grip in the board.. this would basically be taking the place of Wipe Away. Keep in mind i plan on going to about a 100 person tourney that im expecting a large amount of CounterTop...
I also have a general question about the gameplay of magic as well. no one i know is acually 100% certain on the answer. Here is the 1st part. Say I play an an AdN and in response to my own AdN i play an Angel's Grace. Can the AdN be countered by my opponent? if that answer is no it cant be countered, Say now my opponent has a Counterbalance in play and happens to have a 1 mana CC Spell on top. If the Counterbalance counters my Angels Grace and he still has the mana up to play a counterspell on my AdN, Can he or has his chance for priority been taken by my Angels Grace...?
How it works:
You cast AdN and before passing priority, you cast Angel's grace. This one goes on the stack, your opponent can respond by a triggered ability but not by any activated ability nor any spell. When Angel's Grace resolve (or not), then the priority goes back to your opponent for the AdN. He can now do whatever he wants in response to it (i.e. counter it)
I'm pretty sure it's the right way to see this stack, but if someone else could confirm...
P-M
So I am in no way new to the format but I am very new to this deck. I have been messing with this list:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Duress
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
1 Wipe Away
Sideboard:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Krosan Grip
1 Tropical Island
3 Slaughter Pact
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Extirpate
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
Now a lot of you keep refering to the IGG loop? In what way is it a loop. I mean, I get that if you play that card you win but in what way is it a "loop"?
KC Keel - 20
TCG Player - Magic: The Gathering
Preferred Format: Legacy or Limited
Team Melee
drummerkilz06@yahoo.com
Killz: that list is pretty close to one that mateml has been playing for awhile with a lot of success. If I remember correctly, you're +1 Wipe Away, -1 Ponder from his 60. Myself, I'm something like
-4 Duress
-1 Orim's Chant
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Swamp
-1 Tundra
+4 Silence
+2 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Ponder
+1 Plains
+1 Island
+1 Scrubland
I don't play Swamp because I never fetch out black mana early (I lack Duress). Plains is better with 7 chants main, the 8th in the sb, and 4 serenity available postboard as well. I play 10 cantrips with 15 lands including 3 basics. This seems to be the correct configuration if you're facing a lot of Tempo Thresh and Merfolk, although worse against Counterbalance decks. I have 1 Trop Island, 1 Bayou available out of the sideboard to support Krosan Grips and a pair of Xantid Swarms.
The IGG loop refers to the fact that if you played multiple IGG (as did this deck before Ad Nauseam was printed (FT played 2 IGG)) you could chain together two acceleants and an IT to generate a lot of storm out nothing. This isn't a new concept (Iggy Pop has done it since Infernal Tutor was printed, and TES did it shortly thereafter), but it's generally not necessary anymore since most people would rather tutor for Ad Nauseam when facing discard instead of Infernal Tutor (the only time you need the loop to hit 20 lifeloss was if you played Infernal Tutor with no storm (i.e. after dumping some LEDs and other artifact mana onto the table against b/g suicide and then casting mystical tutor to put IT on top of your deck)).
If you test Dark Confidant, I'm fairly certain you'll find him lacking against control. They don't always board out their removal spells due to lack of relevant stuff to board in or the idea that they might be able to STP their own Goyf or Factory to put them outside of lethal storm range in addition to dealing with stray Confidants or Xantid Swarms (which is why I don't run a full set anymore).
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
This. Bob seems great on paper, but the format's just so creature heavy right now that most decks just can't take out all their removal. I've won quite few games with cards I really wanted to beard out from control decks.Originally Posted by emidln
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
emidln: So you are not the only person switching from duress to more chants. Is this an preference or is it starting to become the acceptted "better" build? I am thinking about playing this for worlds and I dont have a lot of time to test both builds. Is duress safer? Also, if bob is not very good, what could I replace him with?
Thanks for clearing up the "IGG loop" reference. I mean, I understand what the card did, I just didnt see why they were refering to it as a loop you know?
KC Keel - 20
TCG Player - Magic: The Gathering
Preferred Format: Legacy or Limited
Team Melee
drummerkilz06@yahoo.com
I posted this over in the FT thread but figured I would post it here as well as I am not sure how many people read both threads.
Took a DDFT Hybrid to my local tournament today and went 4-0-2 and split the prize in the top 4 out of 30ish people. I got really good matchups but the deck was performing flawlessly. Here is the list I took followed by a short report:
4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
4x Infernal Tutor
3x Cabal Ritual
2x Silence
2x Chrome Mox
1x Tendrils
1x KGrip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
Sideboard
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
2x Krosan Grip
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Naturalize
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Silence
1x Plains
Round 1 - G/R/w Welder Survival
g1 - He lands a turn 2 Survival and I win VIA IGG loop on turn 4.
g2 - Opening hand is beautiful and I easily setup for the turn 2 AdN kill.
Round 2 - BW Board Control w/ Sinkhole, Thoughtseize, Vindicate
g1: Turn 1 I get Thoughtseized and win on turn 3 after Brainstorming into MT, and Tutoring up AdN with Dark Ritual in hand.
g2: Turn 1 I get Thoughtseized and my hand is: LED, LED, Naturalize, Tundra, fetch, Infernal Tutor, Mystical. He takes Mystical and I draw another MT and play land go. He Thoughtseizes again on his turn 2, again taking the MT and next turn I use the IGG loop for enough damage to kill him since Thoughtseize helped me out. Turn 1 and 2 discard spell and I still win on turn 2 .... pretty fucking good!
Round 3 - Zoo w/ Teeg in the board
g1: I keep a really solid hand and he gets a blazing start but I win with IGG loop on turn 3.
g2: I keep a mediocre hand because I am willing to gamble with my 7 and he keeps a hand with just land and Relic of Progenitus but no pressure (mulled to 5 or 6). I fire off AdN on turn 4, he is stalled on 1 land but I don't want to give him time to drop Teeg or something and AdN into garbage but I eventually hit Petal, LED, Dark Rit, IT, and play Chrome Mox and Petal, Chain of Vapor Chrome Mox back to my hand and copy it for Petal, drop my hand and IT with LED in play into Tendrils.
Round 4 - Draw
Round 5 - Draw
Top 8
Round 6 - Mono-White Kithkin from standard. Again, no joke, he was undefeated up until this point and was tearing some good legacy decks apart.
g1: Mull to 6 and open up: Dark Ritual, MT, Trop, fetch, Chrome Mox, Chant .... god I love combo, EOT I MT for AdN and easily win on turn 2.
g2: I keep a weird opening 7: MT, MT, Brainstorm, land, Cabal Ritual, IT, and Dark Ritual. I plan on going the DD Route since I haven't yet but after I draw a third MT I decide to Brainstorm and hit another land and LED. This deck is to good, put back what I don't want, EOT MT up another Dark Ritual and IGG him out on turn 3. I remember the first time I saw a legacy combo deck play and thought "WTF"??? That was exactly what this kid did. He looked at me after g1 and said "I have nothing to stop that ... I don't think there is anything I can do". Then after the round was over he asked me "is there any way to stop your deck?" I told him the usual hate cards like Null Rod, Teeg etc. and he was just dumbfounded still, he even made a comment that our 2 games were like not even playing Magic. I agreed, this is the point of combo, your opponent has cards ... but very few of them even matter.
Overall I had spectacular matchups and the deck performed flawlessly. I never lost a single game, and only mulliganed twice out of 8 games. I am really feeling this build. The deck feels so solid, and for a while I felt that I didn't even need DD, but I knew against blue AdN would be coming out and 2 more DD would be coming in. I also never really drew Top ... at all. The draws were pretty good and there were a few games I had it in my hand but it was never really necessary. STILL, I am glad it was there should my hands be terrible and in need of filtering. In round 1 I almost did a turn 2 DD go against Survival with: IT, Ritual, Ritual, Cabal, Petal, Petal, land in hand but he had Survival in play and was afraid of a turn 3 Platinum Angel so I kept my options open. Eventually winning on turn 4 after I drew IGG. The SB was HOT all day, I feel it was really dialed into the meta this week. Against most aggro decks I go: -1 Grip, -3 to 6 Chants and add in all my 3x Disenchants, 2x Chain of Vapor, and Slaughter Pact, but it depends on the deck and how many Disenchants I want because I don't want to mess up AdN very much. Against any blue deck without Counterbalance I would go -1 AdN, -2 Chrome Mox, -2 IT and +2 Xantid Swarm, +2 DD, and +1 Silence, against Thrash and Merfolk board in the Plains in the spot of Sea #2. Against anything with CB I would board just like above and in addition go -1 Cabal Ritual, -1 Lotus Petal and +2 Grip. I really feel this SB is cabaple of handling basically anything and is super effective against nearly everything you will encounter. Thoughts?
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Again with the T2 decks in the top8! Wtf?
How is a Kithkin player getting into the top8 of a Legacy tournament? Either he's an extremely good player or he's just extremely lucky.
I mean, Kithkin literally cannot beat combo, obviously, but I don't see it ever beating Landstill, Survival, hell, any Legacy aggro deck with a damn Jitte.
White Aggro with a couple of first strikers, Path to Exile, Figure of Destiny and Burrenton Forge Tenders beats Goblins, Merfolk, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (i'm not sure about Zoo) and has a good game vs control. Even Jitte isn't a problem as long you have a first strike creature (Kithkin plays 8 vs max. 4 Jittes) on the board first.
If you combine this with a good player, a bit of luck (not encountering combo) then you can end up high in the tree. (You can check out my list for an example when it comes to a Legacy ww decklist http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=14116)
Last edited by Nelis; 08-14-2009 at 02:37 AM. Reason: edited for grammar
Honestly, I can see them possibly beating Goblins because of Path+Forge-Tender, and I can see Kithkin sometimes beating Thresh because an early Cloudgoat slips through, or they get early Spectral Processions that evade CounterTop lock, but I cannot envision Kithkin beating a Legacy control deck, or a Legacy combo deck, like ever.
And if Jitte ever resolves vs. Kithkin, they just lose, period. I've played vs. the deck alot during the Lorwyn block Standard season, and yes, it's a decent aggro deck but it's most definitely not on the same level as Legacy decks.
I say it must have been a hell of alot of luck.
It wont beat combo that's for sure. That's where luck comes in.
But it beats thresh because it has much more creatures with path to exile to get rid of Tarmogoyf. It generally has more threats that ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh can counter. And in midgame Ranger of Eos (after you've ridden them of their counters) gives you Figure of Destiny which will be 8/8 so you can finish them off. It works.
And you are absolutely wrong about Jitte being game over. First strike creatures make it very hard for it to gain counters and then there's Path to Exile to prevent equipping a creature. And he might have some artifact removal to help him out a bit as well. And you don't know what specific list he is playing and what the meta game exactly is.
God damn standard decks ... they are a bitch for all the people playing Counterbalance garbage but a bye for combo!!!! It is actually very entertaining because they show what decks are good at beating random garbage and what types of decks are strictly metagame decks .... and the DDFT Hybrids are certainly not the meta decks :)
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
I finished 3-1 with pulp_fiction's list yesterday using the following sideboard:
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [M10] Silence
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [SH] Mox Diamond
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [B] Plains (3)
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [VI] Helm of Awakening
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall
I won against Zoo, Uwb Landstill and a Combo Deck with few protection.
My loss was unfortunate, I guess. I lost to another Zoo deck, which surprised me in Game 2 with a Chant in response to my Doomsday (which would have killed him that turn).
In Game 3 I held a hand that would have won easily, if I drew some business. The only thing I assembled over the next turns were some Chants and a Doomsday - he still beats my pass-the-turn-pile which 2 burnspells and a Lavamancer (I Orim's Chanted him, paying the kickercosts).
Still I was quite impressed with what the deck could do, and therefore I am satisfied with the list so far.
I didn't like the 3 Disenchant-effects in your sideboard, pulp_fiction (my meta has very few amounts of staxx), therefore I gave the alternative kill another try. It wasn't needed (again), although I boarded it against Landstill. I think at the moment ppl aren't playing Meddling Mages anymore and Ethersworn Canonist can be answered much easier.
So props again for the poster above me.
@FredMaster: Glad you liked the list. I hate running into an unexpected Orim's Chant from a damn aggro deck. Not sure why they aren't playing Teeg or Null Rod since those cards can apply to other matchups and I personally have never seen a "combo heavy" meta too justify running Chant in the SB just for the combo matchup!
The 3 Disenchants are for the standard hate cards in my meta, everyone decided to follow whienot and play the Null Rod tech and a lot of people have started boarding in Pyrostatic Pillar. So in addition to Chain of Vapor I thought it would be better to have more Disenchants to handle the stuff I commonly see, Stax randomly shows up 1-2 times a month and they certainly do help that matchup as well!
While playing the deck did you ever want Ponder? I have been considering trying to fit in 2x Ponder but not sure what to cut or if I would actually want to cut those cards. The deck feels like it has just the right number of rituals and moxen, did you ever find yourself with too much mana? Cabal Ritual is most likely what would be cut to fit in Ponder but ... not sure if that is worth it. I think it would take away to much speed. Perhaps going -1 Top, -1 Cabal Ritual and +2 Ponder, but that makes DD out of the board a little weaker.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
I did see some mana-heavy hands without much business. But I wouldn't change the maindeck except for 1 Cabal Ritual and/or 1 Lotus Petal.
Lotus Petal though is definitely one of the best cards, AN flips can give you.
I wouldn't like to weaken that part of the deck more and more.
What I would never drop is the Sensei Top. I just love and hate (too powerful) the card for what it does.
I'd recommend you to test a Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond from the Sideboard. I've been testing the extra Moxen since Emidln's GP Chicago list and loving that extra Anti-Aggro Boost from the SB. Especially here adding a 3rd Moxen to the Maindeck after sideboarding won't weaken your opening hands too much, I think.
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