Standstill actually is a tempo oriented card most of the time. Just because we cut CB/Top doesn't mean the deck still can't win on the back of SS. It's really the only reason Dreadnought is even viable...to regain lost card advantage. A lot of decks most of the time that can't operate under it will pop it most of the time if not their next turn the turn after to play something. I disagree though about your assessment of F/I. The Fire option is mainly the only thing you're going to use with it most of the time why not just run an entire board sweeper maindeck over it. Also F/I doesn't kill Kird Ape, Nacatl, or any 2 lord creatures of any Tribe deck in play. Firespout is rarely dead as most of the time you can always trade it to kill a Dark Confidant or something. I agree on your REB assessment that the card is game breaking. Maybe I'll just cut the BEBs for them and -1 Relic for
+4 REB
UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx
Here in Holland the meta is also dominated by decks that are not good for dreadstill. Merfolk, landstill, the rock and Zoo are frequently played.
Since I love this deck and still think it's one of the most powerful decks around I to wanted to change the deck.
The change of going at a tempotresh list does not suit me. It makes your combo match-up worse, and protecting your dreadnought will become more difficult. Counter/top is a brilliant combination and it helps protect your own dreadnought and goyf.
Futhermore, the tempo list makes match-up that are in your favour equal, like NLU and Zoo. Off course you get the sweaper Firespout main, but still, I don;t like this tempo list.
I am currently testing this list:
4x goyf
3x dreadnought
2x trinket mage
2x daze
2x spell snare
4x force of will
4x brainstorm
4x stifle
1x trickbind
3x standstill
3x counterbalance
3x top
2x EE
3x volcanic
2x tropical
4x island
3x wasteland
3x mishra's factory
3x delta
3x strand
SB
3x Lighting bolt
1x needle
3x relic
2x krosan grip
3x firespout
2x Pyroblast
1x REB
I've got two open spaces in the mainlist;
My choices for the open spot are:
shackels
lightning bolt main (have to change the sb then off course)
vendellion clique
Currently i'm running the clique. It has been a huge help against landstill and merfolk during testing. Taking the annoying Elspeth/Moat/LOA is helpfull. And it's a 3/1 flying bolt, so what do you guy's think?
Team Nijmegen
Cutting the Standstill was just a simple thought, i didnt want to say that its bad, of course dropping it after playing nought/goofy its awesome, maybe i played tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh to long :D
For Fire//Ice i am not sure if u really tried it, my first thoughts when i played them where the same, splitting 2 damage is ok but why tapping a permanent? When i played it i have to say i used a 50/60 Ice and Fire, Ice is great eot to tap out the opponent or otherwise after wasteland just keeping the opponent stuck with a tapped land in the upkeep but together with 4 lightning bolts in the maindeck as tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh does u get a very powerfull combat suite, if we got both on hand we can do up to 5 damage (stalker) for 3 mana other than playing firespout+cc1 or cc2. Also tapping an opponents creature while beating with goofy is very helpfull to keep tempo or just protect ourself from a big opponent creature for one turn. At least the cantrip of ice and the possibility of pitching it into FoW are enough to me setting it over firespout in the maindeck. Maybe you give em a try for 2-3 games to get a feeling how often it can be used on very different situations.
For the Cards like Kird Ape etc which are not targeted by Fire you can delay on the Lightning Bolts and firespouts post board.
I also think the manabase for a tempo oriented version should be on 20 lands.
I like Rood's list, but I would cut 3 Firespout MD for 1 Lightning Bolt and 2 Fire/Ice.
Even though I like the list I'm not sure it's the right way to go..
This has always been a control deck and cutting control elements is not good.
Also when you land a full Counterbalance/Top most likely you win. Is it the same with some burn spells? Not sure..
Due to my testing Merfolk is even preboard and favorable for Dreadstill postboard. Zoo can cause problems but most builds have problems handling Dreadnought and a quite light manabase that succumbs to Wasteland/Stifle.
Landstill depends on their build whether it is even or slightly unfavorable but 4 Color builds get slaughtered by Blood Moon from the sideboard in my Ur build. Furthermore Landstill doesn't see much play any more, at least no in bigger tournaments. This might however be different in your local metagame and you could add some Crucible of Worlds to your sideboard as they totally destroy Landstill.
The Rock is what I consider this deck's worst matchups. However I am still 3 - 0 in real life tournament play against that deck but my testing proves that it is definitely unfavorable. Relic of Progenitus and abusing standstill proved to be very strong against The Rock and some builds also had problems with Blood Moon or recurring Wastelands. For decks like The Rock, Truffle Shuffle, Eva Green, ... you might have a look at Kira Great Glass Spinner and Sower of Temptation as these decks tend to have serious problems at handling this combination of cards. This is however only a metagame adjustment I'd only take in case those decks are really commonly played in your metagame.
I got my factories back yesterday so i'll be able to play the typical Dreadstill next sunday on a ~80 man/woman tournament, trying out this build:
3 Dreadnought
4 Goofy
2 Trinket Mage
3 D. Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Fire//Ice
2 Spell Snare
1 engineered explosives
3 mishras factory
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
4 volcanic island
3 wasteland
4 tropical island
1 island
Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
1 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Firespout
3 Krosan grip
2 tormods crypt
I dont feel sure about playing 3 or 4 Standstills also 3 or 4 Factory, i think 4 factory + 3 wasteland gives me to much colorless while 3 standstill should be enough aslong i play brainstorms and tops.
I didnt want to cut fire//ice on 2 so i moved 1 spell snare to the sideboard but i dont know if the otherwise would work better.
You think Spell Snare is better than Daze in this deck? I like Daze because it can help secure your turn two play (CB, SS, Nought/Stifle, Goyf, etc.). Though, Spell Snare is better at countering your opponents T2 play. Also, I just feel like I would rather up the CB count to 4 rather than play more Snares, since they share similar roles but CB is just so much more broken.
I really don't like the idea of cutting CBTop , you must protect the nought and there is no better defence than CBTop , StP , Demonblades , Edict and all this shit ruin our plan.And if you are afraid of Grip you can always get a Goyf and down CBTop and the Grip will go for CB for sure..
About the idea of cutting standstill for lightningbolts/FireIces I may improve alot of matchs but there is just some matchups which i thought it is the only way to win.
Last weekend playing UGr version (with 3 noughts and main pitting) i just lost to Goblins(bad luck) and It's the fear or some Team America + loan ( loan waste + volrath's won the 2 games).
Dreadstill is essentially a series of highly disruptive synergies that work in combination to overwhelm the opponent in the early midgame. Stifle/Wasteland, Stifle/Nought, CounterTop, Standstill/Mishra's Factory, Trinket Mage/Toolkit, and 10-11 counterspells to back it all up. If you remove or significantly lessen any part of those synergies you really damage the basic function of the deck, which is to deflect/disrupt and then destroy quickly.
The 3 color build adds in the most obvious card to splash for in the meta in Tarmogoyf and so they avoid weakening the deck as they de-emphasize slightly a couple of the synergies by playing only 3 Noughts and 2 Trinket Mages.
Any other really significant removal is going to weaken the deck in my opinion. For all of the experimenting that the rest of the blue meta is doing with Planeswalkers and slower control this is still the most fundamentally sound deck in terms of going into an unknown meta and just dominating it. It doesn't get played enough for everybody to realize the fact, but this is the best overall archetype in Legacy right now.
Yeah I don't follow all this conjecture of removing CBTop to become more like Tempo Thresh. Tempo Thresh doesn't play Nought because it likes to stifle lands, it doesn't like the -1 CA, and because it's hard to protect him from removal without CB. Mongoose is actually a really solid threat in that deck and shouldn't be replaced with Nought.
Anyway, I agree that the ubiquity of Pridemage and Grip is a problem for this deck. But, like I said, there are multiple ways to stop Pridemage, such as burn (2-3 spells is good) and/or counters. If there is such a flood of Grip then I say maybe this isn't the correct metagame choice...
That's all.
Pridemage is an issue, however a deck packing 5 stifle effects shouldn't be losing Counterbalance to it. The stiflenought plan is what gets upset a bit and that's what needs to be addressed.
Basically there are about 2 slots in the deck that are available to swing the deck around to being less vulnerable to pridemage, those being the 11th counter (either Daze 4 or Spell Snare 3) and the 4th Standstill.
Packing 2 Lightning Bolts in those slots looks good on paper. You can use the extra removal not only on pridemage, but on dark confidant, meddling mage, goblin lackey and several other problematic small creatures. It also gives the deck an option to do instant damage to the opponent as a finisher occasionally.
I think however that playing 2 Firespout main deck is stronger, because it extends the reach of the solution to swarms, which can be problematic. It really strengthens the matchup against Merfolk, which is a tough opponent at the moment. Firespout also handles pridemage and it handles more than one if the opponent has been dropping them pre-emptively and planning to use them to turbocharge goyf when he lands.
Krosan Grip really isn't much more of a problem than it used to be. I think it might be less overall because a lot of decks that might have packed a grip or 2 main deck are now tuning them out as part of the adjustment to get 3 or 4 pridemages in. Basically Goyf Sligh is the problem and that's not a hard matchup unless you keep a bad hand or get a bad draw after the first 7.
So anyway if we add 2-3 Burn spells for those open Slots, wouldnt fire//ice be more potential for a maindeck? I think 2 damage is enought for the really hard threats you can burn with both spells but ice got some additional issues.
By the way, how good is sower of temptation at all? i know its good cause cc4 wont be counterbalanced and it steals any creature imidiatly and it catches every spot removal but nearly every Baseruption, Dreadstill or Countertop lists play them at least 2x in the sideboard over threads of disloyality or control magic.
Last edited by Tangle.Wire; 08-17-2009 at 09:32 AM.
These two things are actually really bad together. I played 3 sower in my sideboard at Worlds and one of the pre-lims, and I can tell you for a fact that catching creature removal and losing what should be a 3-for-1 is a huge blow. After both tournaments I was left wishing they had been Control Magics, and because the sowers caught removal and subsequently returned the creature to it's owner, I lost several games. I do, however, think that there needs to be some sort of Control Magic/Sower action in the sideboard, as it is currently my only answer to Tombstalker besides "Race with Nought", which works less often than expected.
Between differing color splashes and the lack/inclusion of trinket mage, I find this statement to be wrong.Basically there are about 2 slots in the deck that are available to swing the deck around to being less vulnerable to pridemage, those being the 11th counter (either Daze 4 or Spell Snare 3) and the 4th Standstill.
Firespout isn't really fast enough to deal with the problem turn 1/2 plays like Lacky, Nacatl, Confidant, and Pridemage. Bolt and Fire//Ice are both much more efficient and versatile. Firespout can't hit Jace or a Mutavault, either.
I'm not saying Firespout isn't amazing in its own right, though.
Well with Zoo playing 4 Pridemage and 3-4 Grip, I don't think Control Magic would be all that much safer. Sower is always going to be a swingy card. As always, the trick is protecting it, and the deck has plenty of defensive spells.
I'd also like to add that you can run Divert in the SB instead of Hydroblast like I do if you want even better protection against removal. I started playing it instead of blasts in Team America and it was consistently impressive. Honestly I don't know why this card isn't played more often. It serves a lot of the same purposes as Hydroblast, plus so many others, in addition to being a likely 2-for-1. Diverting a Path to Exile or Snuff Out is just brutal.
My SB:
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Divert
3 Firespout
2 Tormod's Crypt
Last edited by keys; 08-18-2009 at 05:32 AM.
Yes, Grip and Pridemage and possibly Oblivion Ring, depending on the matchup. As opposed to Chain Lightning, Lightning Bolt, Firespout, Fire//Ice, Lightning Helix, Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Pyroclasm, Humility, Wrath of God, Stifle, Rift Bolt, Gempalm Incinerator, ect. Despite the fact that there's plenty of enchantment hate running around, there is still MUCH more creature hate. I still stand that Control Magic would be a better use of the slot for the meta we had at worlds.
So back to the generally sideboarding plan, is there something we could board against black? as it is a common splash color for confi,stalker,discard but also of played in mono decklists so why dont we add 1-2 slots for black? My current sideboard looks like this:
2 Sower of temptation (not sure)
2 Krosan grip
3 Pyroblast
2 Tormods crypt
2 submerge (are there better slots?)
2 firespout
2 x Empty for now x
-> I run 1 firespout on the maindeck also an explosives but i am not sure if i should board 3 grip or either an additional explosives from the sideboard.
I also feel like something against Plainswalkers will be needed a lot of people on my meta play em anyway and i think Ultimate Walker will get a popular deck at least for the next 2-3 weeks since its "new"
Ok... I wasn't implying that enchantment removal gets more play than creature removal, I was merely stating that Control Magic is sometimes just as fragile as Sower in the matchup it is most often used in. You didn't have to list every creature removal spell in the format. But since you made the effort, let me remind you that half of those cards are played in decks that you would never SB Sower in against, and a few more are metagame/SB cards that would never see play past game 1, nor be brought in game 2. That leaves Chain Lightning, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Path to Exile, Snuff Out (don't forget) and maybe Swords. The only deck that plays more than 4 of those is Zoo.
Divert is pretty ballsy versus black disruption.
Submerge is probably your best bet against Stalker, besides Sower and of course FoW, so you can leave those in.
I agree with keys, as the opponent don't really wants to play enchantment threats on our control magic as we also play counterbalance, i think spot removal for creatures is played on nearly every non-combo deck and nearly each creature spot removal targets sower.
I'm assuming you're encompassing Goyf Sligh into "Zoo", but you should still consider Canadian thresh, where you're likely going to have 3-4 Fire//Ice, 3-4 Bolts, and Stifle. That's plenty of good reasons to not be putting creatures with asses less than 4 and swingy, stifleable abilities on the table.
And even if we assume that those removal spells are the only ones pointed at sower ever, when are you bringing sower in? The only matchups where I want sower are the ones that are running 4+ cards worth of creature removal. I mean, I basically bring sower in against TA, Zoo, Thresh, and the occasional mirror match. Of those four, Thresh and Zoo are both packing more Creature removal than Enchantment hate, and see play more often than the other two options. TA has a fairly fragile manabase, which is a lot easier to keep off of Kgrip than it is to keep off of Snuff out, and the mirror is infrequent enough that I don't think the additional 2 power is going to make up for the advantage in all those other matchups.
Lets say Zoo boards in four Krosan Grips. Those grips are serving triple duty alongside Pridemages, as they have to target Noughts, CB and Control Magic. That's not considering that Grip often gets pointed at tops when there's no counterbalance around, or fires at EE. The ratio of "cards this targets" to "number of things targeting" is rather high for Grip, and fairly low for any of the bolts or Fire//Ice, as they're only ever going to be pointed at your dome, or your Sower.
Sorry if that came off rough, but I'm a bit tired as of late. If you still disagree we can just drop it, but after testing and playing in tournaments every day for about a week straight, I can say safely that my Sowers are going somewhere else.
This sounds more like an argument for Control Magic than for Sower. Is it supposed to be read as such, or am I missing your point?I agree with keys, as the opponent don't really wants to play enchantment threats on our control magic as we also play counterbalance, i think spot removal for creatures is played on nearly every non-combo deck and nearly each creature spot removal targets sower.
^^ you read correct, control magic > sower imo, but i am not sure if i should just leave those slots to shackles, threads or just submerges.
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