Generally unfavorable (40-60 maybe a little worse, maybe slightly better depending on the exact list) unless you are playing a 0-LED list with a bunch of red blasts main. The infy red blast lists have a favorable CB matchup (generally in favor of a worse everything else).Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I hate to speculate because there are a ton of things to consider, land count, protection spells, SB cards, etc. I will give you the stats for a deck like this, here is my standard list for ANT:
4x Dark Ritual
4x LED
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Orim's Chant
4x Lotus Petal
4x Cabal Ritual
3x Silence
2x Chrome mox
2x Ponder
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Tendrils
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Krosan Grip
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
1x tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
Sideboard
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Krosan Grip
2x Slaughter Pact
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Ad Nauseam
1x IGG
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Plains
With a build like this your matchup is roughly 45/55 in favor of Thresh with CB and then about 50/50 after SB. I always say it depends on how good the combo decks draw is because combo decks are the most unfair archetype and just simply are that good, but they are their own worst enemy. The reason for these odds is the deck is not running Doomsday, and after Krosan Grip comes in I always cut Ad Nauseam because the odds of winning with it while having minimal Rituals/Moxen/Draw in the deck and having more KGrips and Swarms is bad. You can take you chances but they aren't good. So in this matchup I just play it like Iggy Pop because I have a shit ton of Chants. BUT this suffers if they bring in graveyard hate.
If you are playing Doomsday your odds go up because you are essentially reliant on nothing and don't run AdN or it is sided out for more DD. Odds are a lot better. But it depends on the build of DD. Chants, Blasts, land count. But everything is give and take, this deck obliterates literally everything except Stax/Stompy variants and CB Thresh. But a deck like DDFT w/ 10-12 protection spells will have a spectacular matchup with blue but suffer a little in the aggro matchups because it can not consistently kill on turns 1-4.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Why do you play Xantid Swarm instead of just more Chant-effects?
With Xantid Swarm it feels like having a permanent-Chant that suffers from EE, Deed, Stifle, other Spotremoval (maybe even flying creatures on the other side, if you just need that safe cantrip/set up spell) while also weakening your manabase.
Before the match, both of us have been playing at the front tables so I should have known, he was playing the Goatsefolk. But when we were rolling dices to see who starts, I suddenly was pretty sure that he played Elves...
I kept a hand of (approximately), on the draw: Chrome Mox, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual.
This could have been a mulligan but I figured that it should be enough for Elves together with the 8th card.
Well he opened with Island, Cursecatcher and I already knew what had to come. Brainstorm did find some good cards + a land but it was obviously wasted on his next turn.
So yeah, that was game 1. In game 2 I held a decent hand (as far as I can remember) but he had multiple Cursecatcher + Lords and therefore a pretty fast clock. As I said, I hate to loose against that kind of deck but he made me even more angry when he said that he had no idea what he was playing against and showed me that he boarded Relics out for Kira, Great Glass-Spinner to have more critters, since he thought I was playing a slowish deck.
The rest of my games where really boring, to be honest. I was always able to assemble the IGG-loop or an early AN against Zoo/Sligh and Affinity (I even killed the Affinityplayer first turn on the play, g2 - yeah, I scrubbed game 1).
I didn't have a tough time against the one Thoughtseize of the Rockplayer from round 1, just assemble an early kill easily.
In game 2 though he made me discard LED, then extirpated it and dropped a Hypnotic Specter. I held two LPs, a threshed CRitual as my only handcards and knew from my Top I was going to draw AN. I casted it on like 18 life and won easily. That's why I love playing combo.
The games were over fast and when I watched my Teammate play against target random opponent, I looked to the match on his right and saw Solidarity own a Countertopplayer. Then I told my Teammate in jest, that I'd love to play against that Solidarity guy with my 8 Chants :P
Guess what I was paired against the next round xD
The three games were all thrilling, I really had a blast. But in the end, I can go of protected, on turn 2 (I boarded Doomsday, Meditate and Grip out for Mox, Cabal and Extirpate) and he will even have trouble doing that on turn 3.
The last round was also easier than expected because the CB player only had Daze and Force against my Chants, which is obviously not enough.
//Edit: Top 4 can be found here, by the way: http://www.trader-online.de/turniere...09-08-T15.html
I was pretty tired so please don't blame me for that deckname. I really thought I was going to fail fucking hard.
Took the following list to my local, had about 35 people this weekend...
4x Dark Ritual
4x LED
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Orim's Chant
4x Lotus Petal
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Duress
2x Chrome mox
2x Ponder
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Tendrils
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Krosan Grip
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
2x tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
Sideboard
1x Tropical Island
3x Krosan Grip
2x Silence
2x Angel's Grace
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Disenchant
1x Slaughter Pact
2x Hurkyl's Recall
Please Criticize anything you may disagree with,
tournament was 4 rounds of swiss...
Round 1, Dredge (I knew what he was playing)
Game 1: Im on the play, draw the NUTS... RIT RIT Land AdN = GG
Game 2: hand is (SdT Sea Mystical LED Petal Tundra ) 1st turn land StP, opponents 2nd turn gives me a scare he does alot of dredging but just doesnt quite have it. My 2nd turn drop LED Lotus Mystical for AdN, crack LED and Lotus top for AdN = GG...
Round 2, Goyf Sligh
Game 1 He bolts me 2x I IGG Loop on turn 3 ( he also had a goyf in play)
Game 2 side in the 1 Grace 1 chain of vapor and 2 disenchant... he borded in 4 cards i still have no idea what they were... i played Adn and Grace on turn 4...
Round 3, Painter/CounterTop
this kid drew God hands against me...
Game 1 (Im on the draw) He goes 1st turn Ancient Tomb Painter. I go Sea Ponder. He Goes on Turn 2 Another Ancient Tomb Gindestone!!! = Gmaeover
Game 2 1st turn i play duress snag a counterbalance he didnt have a grindstone or painter in hand... but he did have 2 ancient tomb... he goes ancient tomb painter!!! TOP DECK... i go, not exactly what i played but i didnt go off. he goes Ancient Tomb Grindstong!!! R U SERIOUS KID... TOP DECKS AGAIN...
Round 4, Painter, Control
Game 1 i mull down to 5 cards... not a good start... i didnt get any chants or duress, he counters my mysticals and infernal tutors. he gets a Magus of the moon in play and i cant recover, he eventually kills me with painter combo, this match took like 30 min. i have no idea how...
Game 2 1st turn StP, 2nd turn top deck Adn... I duress take his only counter. Rit Rit AdN = GG
Game 3 kind like the 1st, we ran out of time. I seriously have no idea how a painter deck and a Combo ran out of time... but whatever we were talking and joking around alot...
Overall i enjoyed the deck as i have for a while now... the thing i would like to discuss the most is my sideboard... any sugestions at all i would appreciate.
also StP was a house and i am in the process of depating on taking out the ponder for 2 more top. i saw some previouse discussion in the forum on that but i would like some more opinions on the matter, after doing some playtesting which ill admit hasnt been to extensive i feel like 2/2 is the best. but if someone thinks otherwise, please post your reasoning...
@Pulp Fiction: How do u feel the Doomsday version would have done against the Painter Control Decks? Clearly the my 3rd matchup was rediculous, but i still feel like the amount of control and the speed of his combo might be problematic... I have the Doomsday and have been thinking about trying that version...
@FredMaster: I play Xantid Swarm because it saves mana on the combo turn and oftentimes just the threat of it makes you opponent keep in their removal and take out cards that actually matter. I have always loved how hard he is to answer, and if they do ... sweet, thats less storm I have to account for when they StP their own creature. If it resolves and you have life, it is also an auto-win against Merfolk as they have no real answer for it.
Glad to see you did so well with the deck, and you did have pretty good pairings ... ah, 8 Chants, yet another reason to not play Solidarity :)
@Moosedog: The 2/2 Ponder/Top split has been working very well for me, glad to see you agree. Doomsday would have been a little better but don't expect to win all your blue matches with it. DD makes things a shit ton easier and you usually have ample time to setup the combo but blue can sometimes just have "that hand" that you can't do anything about, but that is how combo is to just about every single other deck so I think it is an even tradeoff! I would highly recommend DD as it is the most versatile and adaptable combo card that there is! If you want to learn how to play with DD read emidln's primer on MTG Salvation
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showt...light=doomsday
He talks about all the different stacks and how to play it. You will have to spend a LOT of time getting the hang of it, but in the end DD is the best card to have against blue!
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
If you want to play Doomsday, you're going to need to test and read a lot. First off, I recommend that everyone playing storm combo read this:
Four Tips on Winning With Mana Drain by Brian Demars
This is about Vintage, but lessons 1 and 4 are very relevant to Legacy storm combo. After that, there are two articles on the mindset for building Doomsday piles that I can recommend:
Rehearsing the Doomsday Scenario by Stephen Menendian is an article about the original Vintage Doomsday deck that goes in depth about how to create Doomsday piles. While the piles themselves are not relevant at all to this format, the procedures are largely the same.
Crafting Doomsday Piles in Legacy Storm Combo is an article that I wrote about exactly this subject. It walks you through the steps for constructing Doomsday piles (in particular piles through onboard hate).
I had a page somewhere explaining Doomsday piles but I think i lost it. I'll try to write something up listing known useful piles.
I'd recommend reading over the ANT and Fetchland Tendrils threads here on the source. Further, join the storm boards and read our discussions on the deck.
There have been various attempts at a primer over the last year or so. I never quite get around to finishing them. There is the remnants of one on MTGSalvation in their Legacy archives.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Do you mean this page? http://emidln.googlepages.com/doomsdaystacks
Found this by googling for dd piles about a year ago.
I heard a lot about these stormboards, but I couldn't find any link to it. Mind posting a link?
That and I had an updated, more comprehensive one on a test server. That one is sadly lost unless I can find it in my backups. The googlepages site is really old and doesn't reflect some useful technology available, although the piles that are listed there should all work.
http://teamstormboards.proboards107.comI heard a lot about these stormboards, but I couldn't find any link to it. Mind posting a link?
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Once again I took a DDFT Hybrid to my local tournament and went 4-1 then we all did a top 8 split because everyone was ready to leave. The tournament was about 33ish people and here is the list I played followed by a short tournament report:
4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Ponder
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Silence
2x Chrome Mox
1x Tendrils
1x Wipe Away
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
Sideboard
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
2x Krosan Grip
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Naturalize
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Mox Diamond
1x Plains
Round 1 - ANT
g1: We both mull to 6 and I keep a double Chant hand, he only play's Pact and Duress. He attempts to go off through double Chant but he can't and I have a Top in play, a lot of lands and my hand was: DRit, MT, LED. MT into AdN, cast LED and Rit, blow up LED, activate Top and win!
g2: I mull to 5 and keep. He keeps a hand with all acceleration and I eventually draw into Top and filter into 2 Silence, Doomsday, Meditate, and a lot of rituals. He has no answer for the second Chant and loses to a DD pile of: DRit, DRit, Top, Top, Tendrils.
Round 2 - Merfolk
g1: Mull to 6, keep a hand with Top and lose after fetching numerous times and being unable to with because I can't draw a Ritual or Petal.
g2: Keep an awesome hand a lose to: FoW, double Daze, and double Cursecatcher. This is the kind of bullshit I would argue should not happen, again I am 1 mana short of comboing off because I can't draw a single Ritual or Petal. However, I should have won because I had Silence resolve with Curse catcher in play and I had enough mana to cast Infernal Tutor and blow up both LEDs but Cursecatcher stopped me. I had Top in play and fetched IGG with UUUBB floating and play it with U floating, I bring back LED, LED, Ponder and play both LEDs. I SHOULD HAVE BROKEN THE LEDS with Ponder on the stack but because I had 4 hours of sleep the night before I fucked up, Ponder revealed MT which would have fetched a lethal Tendrils and Top draws it ... fucking hell.
Round 3 - Rock
g1: Mull to 5 and keep MT, DRit, land, CRit, Chrome Mox. Draw IT on turn 1 and win on turn 2.
g1: Win on turn 2 with IGG loop after being Throughtseized.
Round 4 - Affinity
g1: He keeps a slower hand and gets Chanted on turn 3 and I win with AdN easily.
g2: After a mull to 6 my hand is: LED, CRit, DRit, Petal, land, IT. I draw another DRit and win on turn 1!
Round 5 - R/W Board control
g1: I keep a good hand and IGG him out on turn 2.
g2: We are both screwed. He draws a shit ton of mana and I look at the top 3 of my library (after shuffling each time) at least 5 times and never draw a second land. He plays 2 Pyrostatic Pillars and they both get Disenchanted (kept an opener of: land, Disenchant, Disenchant, Top, Top, DRit, CMox. I never hit my second land and win on turn .... 10 with DD. The pile was: Meditate, Petal, Rit, Rit, Tendrils. All he could draw was mana, Pyrostatic Pillars, and Engineered Explosives that killed a Mox and LED.
Top 8 split. Overall the deck was performing VERY well. I am really liking the 2 Ponders and never missed the 4th IT. The 3rd Cabal Ritual would have been hella nice but I really liked the Ponders. Overall the deck felt solid and I really like this build. Only thing I would change is the SB. I really want that 3rd Xantid Swarm for the Merfolk matchup. Maybe I will only board in 2 in the Thresh but I really want that third in the board. Other than that, everything was tip top! Thoughts?
Last edited by Pulp_Fiction; 08-28-2009 at 02:09 AM.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
I really like that list, and indeed I'm playing with a similar one (I recently cut the 3rd ponder for the 15th land), with the only difference being a Wipe Away instead of Krosan Grip, and no green lands MD (2 SB though).
I'm glad you found those Ponders useful, you won't miss the third Cabal Ritual, cause with more cantrips you're going to make Threshold more relevant for the 2 you got.
Why are you playing with Disenchant/Naturalize? you already have a Krosan Grip MD and 2 SB, shouldn't it be enough? You also seem lacking in the bounce department. Why don't you switch some number of DE effects for bounce? Why 2nd-3rd disenchant/naturalize over Serenity?
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
As he already pointed out earlier in this thread (really not too long ago), he wants to side that stuff in against Aggro.
I wouldn't play Serenity just due to the fact that you can't tutor it up, if needed.
Sorry, I'm really too lazy (and busy) to read the last X pages of this thread. In some days I'll gain confidence with the thread and ask less stupid things.
However, I was arguing playing serenity over the 2nd or 3rd copy of Disenchant/Naturalize, so you still have one or two tutorable ones.
I find myself siding in the tropicals more than not:
I side out the chrome moxes for lands when I'm also siding out AN.
I obviously side them against LD decks.
Against aggro decks I usually go for -6 chants, +2 lands +4 bounce/removal.
Are you experiencing the same thing?
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Sorry, totally forgot that I still had Grip in the list. I ran Wipe Away instead as I was testing it out and seeing which I liked better, never needed it and it was sided out every match.
I stopped playing Serenity after it kept getting Disenchanted and ORinged. The people in my meta choose to run Pyrostatil Pillar and Null Rod as their hate cards so I just run Disenchants in the board. They are strictly a meta choice and I run a mix of Disenchants and Naturalize because there are times when I may be color screwed and only have access to one of the colors so I can Tutor up which one I need. I really just don't like Serenity since I can't Tutor for it and it usually gets removed before it does anything. Maybe I have just had bad luck with the card, but I have never once encountered problems with Disenchant being ineffective against hate so I prefer them. 2x Chain and 1x Slaughter Pact has been very spectacular removal for the hate bears. I would like a second Slaughter Pact but I currently don't have room. Most likely the 3rd Swarm is going back in and I am cutting the Mox Diamond. I never really drew it or flipped it with AdN and thus far I have only failed on 1 AdN in a tournament running 4x Petal 2x Mox so I am not sure how necessary it is. BUT Mox Diamond would be great against Dragon Stompy and Stax.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
I am starting to get the hang of this....just alot more pre-planning than most decks
@pulp: I noticed you were switching b/w krosan grip and wipe away....are you considering changing that spot to ponder, IT, or c ritual? btw...do you play at supergames?
Damn, I am not that runk, only took me 1 attempt to login! No, you have to have 1 maindeck bounce spell to make the deck viable against hate. Basically I have 1 maindeck answer to CB and a bunch of SB answers to the card. Yes, I do play at Supergames, its the best card shop in Atlanta and has the best Legacy turnout of any shop I have seen. If you are in the area I highly recommend checking it out!
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
I just returned from another big tournament (120+ players), same story as last time to be honest. I went 6-1 again, ending up 3rd without any bad matchups.
The list was the same as last time except for -1 Slaughter Pact +1 Angel's Grace in my sideboard (post #1046).
The meta turned out to be very strange this time. Just a little randomness for reference:
3 Enchantress Decks
4 Belcher
3 Ichorid
2 Elfball
2 43lands.dec
I won against 2x Zoo/Sligh, 1x Elfball (thx Chants), 1x Belcher (same), 1 BW Deadguy, 1x Aggro Loam (just remembered).
I only lost to Belcher in game 3 due to a stupid mistake.
After Game 2 I forgot to change my counter for his lifepoints back to 20. Since he used Street Wraith twice in game 2, I figured he'd be on 16. I was unable to see his graveyard because there was some stuff above and I really really forgot about it. Therefore I did some strange stuff, which would have worked out perfectly, if only he had been on 16 lp.
I took Mystical, Sensei's Divining Top and Silence back from IGG, knowing that he'll have a Pyroblast. I had 3 black and 3 blue floating and an untapped Tundra. I dropped the Top, used it to look at my top 3, then had to pass the turn.
He drops a Charbelcher shortly after that (2 LP in play) so I responded with my Silence. I was even able to assemble Tutor+LED the next turn but he just responded with Desperate Ritual and won :/
If I would have won that game I would have been paired against ITF though, which is definitely less favourable then my Goyfsligh Matchup in round 7.
Overall it was a fun event, but I really don't want to participate in another big tournament filled with Goldfish-matchups.
//Edit: Last matchup added.
Last edited by FredMaster; 08-30-2009 at 05:08 AM.
Congrats man, good finish. I love playing against Belcher, just wait for Seething Song! I am not sure that I get what you are saying. You actually seem bothered that you are playing the best deck (DDFT) in the environment and then gorilla fucking all your opponents with it. This is the whole point of a combo deck, your opponet has cards ... but most of them don't even matter. Consistent combo decks that can reliably fight through hate cards are on a whole different level than everything else. Personally I like goldfishing the deck, and everytime you stomp the shit out of some person who is un-prepared for combo, just goes to show how much better DDFT is than the rest of the decks in the format. Personally I am happy either way, whether I get a shit ton of easy matchups and turn 1 wins or fight my way out of several tight spots using strategies I had previously not thought of, makes no difference to me, just as long as the deck is performing well and I am not encountering bad luck and bad draws, its a good day!
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Well you see, he has some midlife crisis and just can't be happy with himself
@Fred:
Mad propz man, I knew team L.A. would've get a top finish, even if you were the lone attendant.
I couldnt come cuz I was lying around somewhere - naked and drunk.
But I had some chick, so it was ok ;)
And hell, you convinced me to play this again.
Team Legal Actions.
It's obviously another good result with the deck, but I feel like it's not worth much. I don't need to spend 7+ hours with nerds in a hot, smelling room just to goldfish them away, one after the other - then spending 30 minutes with smoking, waiting and laughing at douches.
I find it far more interesting to play against decks that really have the power to harm you. I just want to prove that I can do good against those decks too :/
Round one against Belcher was really fun, since it ended after 2 minutes with a 2:0 for me and an unhappy Belcher player (am I sadistic?).
The guy was really a clichee Belcher player, he had almost his entire deck pimped and still ran the Stomping Ground (foil, though) instead of Taiga.
What makes my loss against Belcher in round 5 less humiliating was the fact that I knew the pilot and also knew that he's an experienced Stormcombo player. So it was overall the most exciting of all rounds.
Fair enough, I know I can beat blue players with combo but I prefer to not play them very often because I don't like leaving luck to decide the matchup. The blue match is largely dependent on your draws, how many land drops you hit, pieces of protection you have, what Top gives you, where as against decks that don't run CB you oftentimes don't even need a land to win. The reason I honestly can't play anything besides combo is no other deck challenges my brain enough or keeps me entertained long enough to play it. There is only so much joy you can get attacking with Tarmogoyf again and again and again. But everytime I figure out how to play the hand the deck gave me, in particular when I am getting shit and still find a way to win, thats what keeps me playing combo. Contrary to what people want to think, there is a lot more to it that rituals and AdN. If you ever find a deck that is not monotonous and racks your brain like combo, please tell me so I can give it a try. Only deck that I have ever played that came close is Eternal Garden, but there is no reason to play that when Aggro Loam is just better, much more boring, but better.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
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