Yeah, if you're worried about Progenitus that much, I think runed halo (over wrath) is probably your best option after teeg. It helps in many more matchups, and doesn't hurt you at all. Plus it's way easier to cast.
Well, I don't necessarily find they can't co-exist. 24 non-burn spells (including Grims), 21 lands, 15 burn-spells seems perfectly sufficient to me. In Extended, I opted to run 20/20/20, but as you run into less early disruption there courtesy to format lacking Daze & Force, you were more able to rely on your early drops sticking and getting there for enough damage to finish with burn.Originally Posted by mackaber
In Legacy, while the "turboburn suite" is more efficient courtesy of Price being a bomb and Fireblast being Fireblast, getting the first ~10 points your creatures are supposed to deal is harder vs. interactive decks so some gamebreakers to use to refuel are probably in order. Testing two Sylvan Libraries, I really liked the card as I was often able to freely sink even 16 life into it no problem after an StP or two and just burn people out while using creatures to force them to waste time not dying.
Generally the first two-three plays vs. e.g. countertop seem to get countered, but usually they're out of hard counters at that point and a non-creature like Sylvan they really can't remove efficiently can just break the game wide open.
Knight was less impressive; when I have a creature, I want to spend time swinging, not turning lands into cards. Also, 3-drops are slow - I'd much rather burn something. That said, a few test games I just plain wouldn't have won without the enormous beef offered by Knight in my team. It may be worthwhile to play few, especially as they slip past Counterbalance quite nicely and have such a great synergy with Fireblast.
So, on the topic of 3-drops, has anybody tried countryside crusher? I don't recall much discussion about him ever... I don't like that he starts out as a 3/3, but that can be worked around if needed. More than him being able to get big I really like that he keeps us drawing into good cards. I'm not sure if that's enough to warrant his inclusion, but I feel like he might be good over some of our other choices.
Based on this T8 list, consider these changes:
-2 Sylvan Library
-2 Knight of the Reliquary
-X burn
+2-3 Proclamation of Rebirth
+2-3 Ranger of Eos
+X Figure of Destiny/Mogg Fanatic
+X Jitte
Burrenton Forge Tender and Children of Korlis would be good in the SB too. Is this win more? The card advantage from Proclamation/Ranger is hard to ignore, but it slows the deck a bit.
So a 3 mana sorcery to recover dead creatures? A 4 mana creature that finds other small creatures? Somehow I fail to see how these helps you win the game faster in Legacy. Burn would just be better than this setup.
Figure of Destiny has been dismissed several pages back as too mana intensive for the effect he provides.
It doesn't speed up your goldfish, but neither does Knight of the Reliquary. With so much aggro/aggrocontrol in the metagame, the card advantage and tempo from Proclamation seems pretty strong to me.
Ranger might be expensive at 4cmc, but it's 9 total power with Nacatl...
The only problem is that the most popular removal spells are Path/Swords. Still an interesting concept that apparently can work.
Interesting stuff, but I think my (and probably others') apprehension is that the additions to the deck are all mid-to-late game cards that are ways of replenishing your forces. The trouble is that they don't draw on the deck's strength of getting your opponent from 20-0 a.s.a.p. They almost play the opponent's game instead of focusing on why Zoo is a DTB in the first place. The art of beatdown is about fast, strong creatures, not 4 cc creatures that get you 2 1cc creatures to cast on turn 5. After your first wave has perished, your opponent should be within burn range.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
Explain to me how Proclamation creates tempo.
But seriously Ranger is an extremel strong Card that kicked ass in extended, altough mainly in the SB. People should definetly consider a pair for matchups that tend to end in attrition wars.
I really feel like this deck is slowing itself way the fuck down. I mean some of the card suggestions posted in here are ok, or even good, but Ranger of Eos? Most games you don't even get to 4 mana, and when you go, you wanna go, equip Jitte, burn, burn, or something of that sort.
Proclamation only seems okay against control, and even then you're just dumping mana for a chumpblocker for Goyf, and ALOT of mana at that. I know most builds have Knight for mana ramping, but you have to think of the times you won't get Knight of the mana required for Proclamation.
The advantage we have over those kind of decks is that we can Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast for 10 on turn 3. Slowing down isn't the answer, especially in the case of those cards.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
In regards to Ranger of Eos and Proclamation, you have access to better creatures/spells than these so why swap them in? They aren't as threatening as the stuff you suggested be switched out.
I can agree in part, with the rest that is. It just didn't seem broke enough to fix
I totally agree with this. Sorry to barge in on the conversation but I have been playing around with zoo online and its best to think in the terms of "how can I opperate on one land in case my opponent wastelands etc." The deck should be consistent and reliable, thats its strength.
I made Top 8 at Feinstein's last Mox Tournament at Die Hard Games in RI with a pretty standard Zoo list and went 5-2-1 at the last Extended PTQ in Hartford, CT with a Zoo list with Ranger of Eos and Proc of Rebirth main deck. I speak from experience, Ranger and Proc have no business being in a Legacy list. Upping your curve with this deck is a horrible thing to do. The less mana you can operate on the better. I love Ranger Zoo and will be seriously testing it for the Extended season starting in January but would never consider it for Legacy.
Second the sentiment.
Won a pretty competitive 17 man tournament today for a copy of FTV:Exiled (I just wanted the kird ape.) Here was my list;
4x Nacatl
2x Kird ape
2x Figure
4x Goyf
4x Pridemage
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x Knight of the Reliquary
-21 creatures-
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Price of Progress
2x Jitte
2x Sylvan Library
-18 spells-
3x Plateau
2x Savannah
2x Stomping Ground
4x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Horizon Canopy
1x SCPlains
1x SCForest
1x SCMountain
-21 land-
I'm gonna go post a tournament report in the appropriate section with more details.
Oh yeah, my SB was;
1x Duergar Hedgemage
3x Gaddock Teeg
1x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Volcanic Fallout
2x Krosan Grip
4x Pithing Needle
Edit//It's up. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=14713
Last edited by hungryLIKEALION; 08-30-2009 at 11:21 PM.
An unanswered Dark Confidant wins you the game. If people can't see this point of view, my posts are useless: Domain Zoo's success is driven by Dark Confidant. If you don't like him, I don't think there's a reason to go Domain.
I can't seriously believe there are people who prefer Ranger of Eos over Dark Confidant. Or other sub-par creatures like Knight of the Reliquary.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
...
KoTR being KoTR has won me an inordinate number of games. Unanswered, he will win every game you play him, often in situations where no other card you could reasonably play will.
I just don't understand why people hate on a creature that will literally be larger than tarmogoyf 4 out of every 5 times you play him.
@hungryLIKEALION: Because most people don't take time to test these cards, so they make snap judgements, you know how it goes. The Zoo thread has acknowledged Knight as a pimp fattie, so don't worry.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Yeah, KotR is a bomb. No way am I adding a 4th color to run Bobs.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
Don't worry, I test the cards alright. I've seen Knight of the Reliquary in action plenty of times, and it seems to me it's simply too slow. Rather than sitting as a blocker, waiting to grow with the tap ability I'd like to go offensive. I must admit that KotR is a way better card than Ranger of Eos, but I still consider it sub-par if you look at the other options you have. Saying KotR is bigger than a Tarmogoyf isn't enough for me: Lorescale Qoatl often gets bigger than Tamogoyf and we don't play that card either, do we? Why don't we play that card? Number 1 reason is because we don't have blue mana, but that put aside, a Domain Zoo list with a Tropical Island next to the Volcanic Island isn't unthinkable, and still wouldn't play Lorescale Qoatl because it's 3 mana: It's too slow. Knight of the Reliquary has the same problem: at 3 mana it comes later in the game than all the other creatures. This also prevents you from playing an extra spell like Bolt or PtE if you need it. Next to the fact that it comes late into the game, it also takes some time to grow. Your opponent could already be dead if you used faster cards. For that matter Whoolly Thoctar is better because it doesn't need time to grow.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Don't try to compare lorescale coatl with Kotr. They're completely different cards. We don't play coatl because it starts out tiny no matter when you play it, and grows very slowly. KoTR, however, is a 6/6 when you topdeck it, and grows quickly. To compare the two is insulting, and shows that you have no clue what you're talking about.
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