[Deck] Zoo

[Waikiki]

I've been playing countryside crusher in the knight slot.

It makes sure you keep getting gas. and the yard gets filled more for lavamancer to eat from.

Also my builds is more focussed on red and plays 20 burn spells 20 creatures and 20 lands.

[Skeggi]

Getting a bit personal are we? There's no need to attack me personally. I do test the cards, I do have argumentation. I agree with the fact that KotR is a better topdeck than a Qoatl; it's true that a Qoatl always has to grow and a KotR doesn't (originally I was going to use Polar Kraken as an example, it's also bigger than Tarmogoyf, but since there is no way any Zoo list could ever cast it I switched to Qoatl). But the point of the matter remains the same - if you topdeck a KotR and bring it into play - if it's 6/6; you're usually lategame. I understand that KotR can win you the game here, but perhaps you already should have won before this. I prefer Domain Zoo lists with Dark Confidant and I'll have no Knight of the Reliquary in it. I've explained why. If you still prefer Knight of the Reliquary, that's your business. I feel no need to call you clueless because of it, because being an internet tough guy is really pathetic.

[chokin]

Don't worry, I test the cards alright. I've seen Knight of the Reliquary in action plenty of times, and it seems to me it's simply too slow. Rather than sitting as a blocker, waiting to grow with the tap ability I'd like to go offensive. I must admit that KotR is a way better card than Ranger of Eos, but I still consider it sub-par if you look at the other options you have. Saying KotR is bigger than a Tarmogoyf isn't enough for me: Lorescale Qoatl often gets bigger than Tamogoyf and we don't play that card either, do we? Why don't we play that card? Number 1 reason is because we don't have blue mana, but that put aside, a Domain Zoo list with a Tropical Island next to the Volcanic Island isn't unthinkable, and still wouldn't play Lorescale Qoatl because it's 3 mana: It's too slow. Knight of the Reliquary has the same problem: at 3 mana it comes later in the game than all the other creatures. This also prevents you from playing an extra spell like Bolt or PtE if you need it. Next to the fact that it comes late into the game, it also takes some time to grow. Your opponent could already be dead if you used faster cards. For that matter Whoolly Thoctar is better because it doesn't need time to grow.

KotR doesn't really need time to grow if you're playing him close to the midgame. Between your fetchlands and possibly theirs, he should be at least a 4/4 or bigger. Coatl always starts as a 2/2.

While Confidant is undoubtedly badass in decks with low curves, does his benefit outweigh weakening the manabase to get an extra color? And out of curiosity, what else besides Confidant would you include to the deck to make the extra splash worth running?

[jandax]

Don't worry, I test the cards alright. I've seen Knight of the Reliquary in action plenty of times, and it seems to me it's simply too slow. Rather than sitting as a blocker, waiting to grow with the tap ability I'd like to go offensive. I must admit that KotR is a way better card than Ranger of Eos, but I still consider it sub-par if you look at the other options you have. Saying KotR is bigger than a Tarmogoyf isn't enough for me: Lorescale Qoatl often gets bigger than Tamogoyf and we don't play that card either, do we? Why don't we play that card? Number 1 reason is because we don't have blue mana, but that put aside, a Domain Zoo list with a Tropical Island next to the Volcanic Island isn't unthinkable, and still wouldn't play Lorescale Qoatl because it's 3 mana: It's too slow. Knight of the Reliquary has the same problem: at 3 mana it comes later in the game than all the other creatures. This also prevents you from playing an extra spell like Bolt or PtE if you need it. Next to the fact that it comes late into the game, it also takes some time to grow. Your opponent could already be dead if you used faster cards. For that matter Whoolly Thoctar is better because it doesn't need time to grow.

Hey uh, you play at the Twee Klavieren at all?

KotR doesn't really need time to grow if you're playing him close to the midgame. Between your fetchlands and possibly theirs, he should be at least a 4/4 or bigger. Coatl always starts as a 2/2.

While Confidant is undoubtedly badass in decks with low curves, does his benefit outweigh weakening the manabase to get an extra color? And out of curiosity, what else besides Confidant would you include to the deck to make the extra splash worth running?

Knight only gets buffs from lands in your graveyard. If that weren't the case, then folks really don't have any reason to knock this guy, as he's a goyf/manafixer and deserves a fuggin' slot no questions

[Skeggi]

Between your fetchlands and possibly theirs, he should be at least a 4/4 or bigger.

Knight of the Reliquary gets +1/+1 for each land card in your graveyard.

Aha... that's why you're such a fan .

While Confidant is undoubtedly badass in decks with low curves, does his benefit outweigh weakening the manabase to get an extra color? And out of curiosity, what else besides Confidant would you include to the deck to make the extra splash worth running?

2-3 Vindicates. Oh, and indirectly Tribal Flames.

Hey uh, you play at the Twee Klavieren at all?

Yes. Do I know you? - Any personal stuff like this via PM please, let's not clog up the forum .

[mackaber]

Also my builds is more focussed on red and plays 20 burn spells 20 creatures and 20 lands.

Would you care to share that list Waikiki? Sounds a lot like what I'm trying to put together but I haven't quite gotten there yet. Are you leaving out Pridemages?

Also all this catfighting about KotR is really childish. I think the question wheter you want to play him or not, really comes down to the question if you can afford to run a 3 drop and cast it consistently.
While in a format without wastelands you'll be able to bring him out a liitle later than turn 4 on average assuming a list with 21 lands. The question remains if you really need a fatty boom boom in the dec or if you just want to go for b2f as your lategame plan. I think this discussion might have a bit more merrit if you started to compare KotR with what you'd replace it with and for me that would be Chain Lightning no4 and PoP no4.

[eq.firemind]

2-3 Vindicates.

Nice effect? Yes.

Beats? No.
Burns? No.
Costs 1 or 2? No...
The deck lacks removal? No (especially after WotC printed Pridemage).
Bad colors? Yes...

So why play it in this deck?

[mackaber]

The deck lacks removal? No (especially after WotC printed Pridemage).

He definetly has a point there...

[Skeggi]

You are asking the right questions eg.firemind. Vindicate seems like something that doesn't belong in such an aggressive deck as Zoo. But since it's very versatile it can bail you out of situations you normally would have a problem with. Try casting a Qasali Pridemage when there's a Counterbalance in play. Vindicate tends to get through a bit easier. Vindicate is almost never a dead card. It's not exactly the best against ANT for instance, nor is it any good if you have nothing to target - but in that case you're already winning. However, I think Vindicates are good, but optional. The black splash is primarily for Dark Confidant - without him, running Vindicate would just be silly because it's a reactional control card. With Dark Condifant, you draw your extra card and therefor you can afford to put some extra effort in destroying your opponent's stuff.

[jandax]

Agreed. To keep zoo's awesome consistancy, just splash a couple of B/U (Badlands/Volcanic Island/Underground Sea) producing duals that can be fetched appropriately, and find a slot for four Bob's and four Tribal flames. There is nothing outside of the blue in the p9 that is worth a card slot

[MMogg]

You are asking the right questions eg.firemind. Vindicate seems like something that doesn't belong in such an aggressive deck as Zoo. But since it's very versatile it can bail you out of situations you normally would have a problem with. Try casting a Qasali Pridemage when there's a Counterbalance in play. Vindicate tends to get through a bit easier. Vindicate is almost never a dead card. It's not exactly the best against ANT for instance, nor is it any good if you have nothing to target - but in that case you're already winning. However, I think Vindicates are good, but optional. The black splash is primarily for Dark Confidant - without him, running Vindicate would just be silly because it's a reactional control card. With Dark Condifant, you draw your extra card and therefor you can afford to put some extra effort in destroying your opponent's stuff.

Black also gives you access to Snuff Out, which may be better in matchups against decks with Chalice. Hyper aggressive decks may also like Snuff Out as it A) doesn't cost any mana, allowing you to cast more during your first few turns, and B) doesn't give your opponent an advantage of a land or life. Anyway, if one were to run black, Snuff Out should definitely be tested.

[Skeggi]

I don't know about you but I'm hesitant in running Dark Confidant + Snuff Out in a deck with alot of fetches and no way to alter the first few cards on top of your deck.

[jandax]

Well, it can be agreed that splashing for Bob isn't a difficult thing to do, and won't compromise consistency or aggressiveness, right?

Adding other black spells where the RGW ones you already have listed will do is kind of counter productive. Bob is a two power Sylvan Library, virtually taking up two extra slots and replacing the two Libraries already occupy. Not tough at all to find a way for him to fit in. And in that case I'd rather run Lavamancer over Cursed Scroll, as you might have cards in hand by the time Scroll gets online.

[MMogg]

I don't know about you but I'm hesitant in running Dark Confidant + Snuff Out in a deck with alot of fetches and no way to alter the first few cards on top of your deck.

Suicide Zoo. If you ran Helix, that would help a little with the life loss. As I said, if one were to run black, Snuff Out ought to at least be tested. It has great potential on paper.

[jandax]

I still don't understand why one wouldn't run a set of Helix's

[Carabas]

Skeggi, how much of your meta plays wasteland? I see a lot of merfolk and tempo thresh, a little dragon stompy, and now that lands.dek has been performing well, I expect to see some of that. This would make splashing black more of a risk.

If I were to splash black, I would just do it for Dark Confidant. Vindicate seems to do too little for too high a cost. I'd rather play maindeck Krosan Grip, or play path to exile in that slot. It just seems like a card I'd be boarding out a lot of the time.

[Skeggi]

It looks like my meta is about the same - wastelandwise. Wastelands actually aren't that bad if you have a Dark Confidant in play. And you can play around Wasteland good enough. For instance, you have a manabase with all fetches and duals, and only 1 mountain. Your hand has 2 fetches; a Bloodstained Mire and a Windswept Heath. Your first fetch could be to the singleton Mountain if you have a Kird Ape in your hand - otherwise you can opt to not fetch. Turn 2 you fetch for Bayou and play Dark Confidant. I understand both options are not optimal, and I would only do it if I knew for sure the opponent has access to Wastelands.

Naya Zoo has a more stable manabase than Domain Zoo, that's a fact. But like Naya Zoo, you don't die of 1 Wasteland. Not even two. The Stifles can be a problem, I must say, but isn't the same true for Naya Zoo? The actual difference between the decks is that Back to Basics can really cripple Domain Zoo, while Naya Zoo usually still manages just fine with the basics. So the question really is - how many Back to Basics do you see in your meta?

[Waikiki]

Would you care to share that list Waikiki? Sounds a lot like what I'm trying to put together but I haven't quite gotten there yet. Are you leaving out Pridemages?

Sure my list:

// Lands
1 [A] Savannah
2 [US] Mountain (3)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Taiga
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [A] Plateau
1 [ON] Forest (1)

// Creatures
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [AN] Kird Ape
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
2 [MOR] Countryside Crusher

// Spells
3 [VI] Fireblast
3 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
2 [RAV] Lightning Helix/Pop not sure what I like best in this slot.

[MMogg]

I still don't understand why one wouldn't run a set of Helix's

Speed mostly, and in true aggro decks, your own life is insignificant, and in that case the life gain is meaningless. It does come in handy in the mirror though or indeed against any aggro deck.

Naya Zoo has a more stable manabase than Domain Zoo, that's a fact. But like Naya Zoo, you don't die of 1 Wasteland. Not even two. The Stifles can be a problem, I must say, but isn't the same true for Naya Zoo? The actual difference between the decks is that Back to Basics can really cripple Domain Zoo, while Naya Zoo usually still manages just fine with the basics. So the question really is - how many Back to Basics do you see in your meta?

It would seem to be, unless I'm missing something, that Stifle on Zoo's fetches is better than having something you've fetched for Wastelanded. If you have already fetched and then have it Wasted (assuming you didn't go for basics), you'd have one less chance of a land draw to compensate.

[mackaber]

Sure my list:

How's rift bolt been working out for you? I loved it in Type2 and extended but when testing it in legacy I wasn't overly fond of it. I think my main qualf was waiting the turn to burn a duder.