From watching the coverage of the SCG5k from last week, I've heard there are some changes to "Drawing too many cards" penalties, as of this summer.
From what I can tell, the long of the short of it is this:
If you're supposed to draw some number of cards from an effect (Say, Standstill) and you draw too many, then it's "Drawing too many cards" and you receive a game loss.
If you draw a card when you aren't supposed to, such as drawing inadvertantly during your opponent's turn (thinking its your draw step), it's a warning.
Can I get clarification on this?
(I moved this post to a new thread to keep the other one from going any more all over the place than it already is, I hope you don't mind)
See #3 here.
3) Mana burn has confused new players for years. Drawing Extra Cards has been a source of similar pain for judges. If I evoke Mulldrifter without blue mana, it’s a Game Rule Violation, but casting Counsel of the Soratami without blue mana is Drawing Extra Cards? If I take the actions on Cruel Ultimatum out of order, which is it? If I activate Jace to have us both draw a card, and it’s the second activation this turn, who gets a penalty?
We spent a lot of time debating options on these and similar questions, and eventually produced a much narrower definition for Drawing Extra Cards: If you are told to draw cards, and draw too many, it’s Drawing Extra Cards. Otherwise it’s a GRV. This is partly to reflect the fact that it can be very hard for an opponent to notice how many cards you’ve drawn and we were able to do this because we’ve been reasonably happy with the success of the GRV backup approach to dealing with the extra drawn card and believe it can be applied more widely.3.6. Game Play Error — Drawing Extra Cards
Definition
This infraction is committed when a player is instructed to draw one or more cards, but draws too many. If a player incorrectly draws cards at a time they were not supposed to, or draws cards as part of another offense, the infraction is a Game Rule Violation.
Example
A. A player draws 4 cards after playing Ancestral Recall.
Philosophy
Though this error is easy to commit accidentally, the potential for it to be overlooked by opponents mandates a higher level of penalty.
Penalty
Code:Regular Competitive Professional Warning Game Game
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
So let me get this straight...
Drawing an extra card when instructed to draw N cards = game loss.
but,
Drawing a card for the sheer fun of it = warning?
Huh?!
Drawing a card for the sheer fun of it = DQ for Cheating.
All non-Cheating penalties assume the infraction was not intentional.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
But that's ridiculous. It assumes that the person isn't just going to lie. If I'm caught drawing a card during my opponents turn, and he catches me and calls the judge, then all I have to do is put on a show. Grow? Omg, I thought you said Go! I'm so sorry, what do we do?Originally Posted by cdr
It's all too easy to be an actor in these situations, which is why I don't think you can consider anything an accident.
The DCI tracks infractions. Several high-level players have received suspensions for accumulated Warnings. If you tend to have a bunch of identical Drawing Extra Card infractions that all look like convenient accidents, expect to take a vacation from Magic.
This has been true for years, and I have yet to see anyone take advantage of it. In fact, I don't know if I've given a Drawing Extra Cards infraction in a year.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
Follow up with regards to SDT:
What happens if a player assumes he's got Top in play and peeks at the top 3 cards under the new M10 rules?
I think you misunderstand. If a judge is applying a non-Cheating infraction, he has determined that the player is not Cheating. A good judge will always keep an eye out for warning signs.
You will never catch 100% - catching it is not easy - but in my experience, shady players get caught eventually.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
This never changed. Still Looking At Extra Cards (warning, shuffle the parts of the deck that should be unknown).
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
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