[DTB] Vial Goblins

[P.S.]

Guess that's why he's Mythic.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [A] Badlands
10 [MR] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [MOR] Frogtosser Banneret
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [ON] Skirk Prospector
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Matron
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [TKX] Goblin

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

So this is what Ive been testing for the last 30 mins since the spoiler came out. The random token is the new guy. I realize that losing ringleader loses the deck alot of late game, but the fact is with testing this so far, i kill on turn 4 or 5 almost every game without fail. this by large helps with the fact that the deck hates sweepers and heck, you can always board for against decks packing wrath and such. Its thoroughly unoptimized by just throwing it out there for speculation on the Instigator.

[FoulQ]

I think you are going to need to play either gemstone caverns and/or chrome mox if you plan on maximizing warren instigator, as well as 8 total lackies for impact. And I'm also starting to think plenty of turn2 ways to get rid of blockers or potential lackey problems is important like weirding. And a little nitpicking about the list is that you are playing warchief + frogtosser, but than chieftain, warchief, and instigator, which is kind of anti synergistic. but who cares, it is thrown together, I understand that.

Honestly, I was hoping for a 1/1 double striking mini ringleader. Like, just the top two or something. Mmm that would have been sexy.

[Otter]

Isn't the Ringleader one of the most abusive cards you can drop with the Instigator? Seems counterproductive to take him out for it.

[chokin]

Seriously. Drop that Banneret or Skirk Prospector shit before you nix Ringleader.

[Nessaja]

Yeah dropping ringleader is definitly not the way to go.

The guy puts up some interesting design questions. Like, I'm not sure if playing 4 will be the right thing to do. If you're playing this card you should also be playing a lot of bombs to abuse the card. Very intersting card though.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Seriously. Drop that Banneret or Skirk Prospector shit before you nix Ringleader.

Fair enough. The reason I had banneret and prospector was because
1)turn 2 warchief means turn 3 sick shit. and
2) more cost reduction makes me happy.

changes -4 banneret -2 prospector
+4 ringleader +2 lands
and i need room for weirdings i suspose.

[HAVE HEART]

This guy seems fucking shitty in every format, unless Zendikar has some Goblins, then Block Constructed Goblins might be okay.

The only way this guy is sick is if the Goblins player also has Warren's Weirding in hand. Almost every deck has a two-drop, so the opposing player is obviously going to block the Instigator if Weirding is not played. Goblin Lackey is awesome because there are close to zero one-drops, especially in the current metagame. Zoo and tribal are the only decks actually able to block Lackey on the draw. If Instigator had Haste, then it is probable that it would see play. As it stands now, it is a shitty 1/1.

[Eseph]

This guy seems fucking shitty in every format, unless Zendikar has some Goblins, then Block Constructed Goblins might be okay.

The only way this guy is sick is if the Goblins player also has Warren's Weirding in hand. Almost every deck has a two-drop, so the opposing player is obviously going to block the Instigator if Weirding is not played. Goblin Lackey is awesome because there are close to zero one-drops, especially in the current metagame. Zoo and tribal are the only decks actually able to block Lackey on the draw. If Instigator had Haste, then it is probable that it would see play. As it stands now, it is a shitty 1/1.

Or, you know, Stingscourger/Gempalm Incinerator, I hear they're pretty decent at helping lackeys get through...

I'm actually pretty happy with this guy, as a 2-3 of. But then again I'm still running FCG with C-Mox in the main. Lackey is what wins games before turn 4, and having more of them will never be a bad thing.

[Volt]

Regarding Instigator... Meh.

[HAVE HEART]

Or, you know, Stingscourger/Gempalm Incinerator, I hear they're pretty decent at helping lackeys get through...

I'm actually pretty happy with this guy, as a 2-3 of. But then again I'm still running FCG with C-Mox in the main. Lackey is what wins games before turn 4, and having more of them will never be a bad thing.

Gempalm Incinerator does not deal with most two-drops, unless the Goblins player also played a one-drop (Lackey/Vial). Stingscourger is a card I forgot about, but it seems relatively weak if the Goblins player does not play a Lackey or Instigator.

Also, the reason Goblins is a competitive deck is because it can win past turn four with plays like Matron off the top into Ringleader, refill the Goblins player's hand. Winning on/before turn four is nice, but not necessary to win.

[Nessaja]

What I like about instigator is that you can drop a Matron/Ringleader, tutor/draw cards in the first strike step and then use one of the cards drawn in the normal combat step.

I think this'll help most in Landstill MU's.

[P.S.]

I will never listen to anyone that cuts Ringleader from Goblins. Credibility out the window.

[Alecthar]

I think this is one of those situations that calls for testing. I for one am pretty excited about Lackeys 5-8, even if they're less efficient. On the other hand, they double drop Goblins (ridiculously good with Ringleader/Matron). I know I've made the mistake of drawing conclusions about a card without testing and been proven wrong (Tooth and Nail in Standard being just one example).

[GreenOne]

Ok, on the new guy:
HOLY SHIT!

Here's my brainstorm:
- It's another great surprise out of vial.
- It's another great surprise in combination with the 8 haste enablers we can play.
- He's quite good in the beating department, beating for 2, and costing only 2 mana. With Chieftain he beats for 4!
- He's going to trump blockers that have thoughtness 1, like Confidant, Lackey, Cursecatcher, soldier tokens.
- As lackey already do, he's going to keep goyf on the defensive. The opponent is going to be continually on the threat of you removing the lonely blocker, attack with this guy, drop matron->SGC and SGC, and winning the game. In this, he might work as well as War Marshall: marhall essentially fogs for 3 turns, while this guy keeps the goyf on the defensive until the opponent finds another goyf or removal.
- It can be played turn 1 with the help of Caverns.
- RR on turn 2 needs reworking the manabase.

In the end, it's a card that might completely change the goblin matchups, especially against creature-light decks (aggrocontrol and control). The opponent is going to play a lot more on the defensive, and our plan of taking the match in the lategame becomes less difficult to execute.
This guy has the potential of being really good. I'll test this:

// Lands
17 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
2/3 [PLC] Stingscourger
2/3 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3/4 Warren instigator
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

About the list:
- 3 caverns seems too much, and is going to be hard to get that RR on the play. I'll try with 2 and drop to 1 if unsatisfied.
- 3 or 4 Instigator. 8 lackeys might be too much: they won't always connect.
- 2 or 3 Scourger: with more lackeys, removal becomes more appealing.
- 2 or 3 Chieftains: Haste enablers are good with lackeys, and the +1/+1 is indeed nice with Double Strike. It's also a nice lackey drop.

[Maveric78f]

I would play 0 wastelands and 20- lands in such a build. Probably more stingscourgers and chieftains. Something like:

// Lands 20
18 [7E] Mountain (1)
2 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures 37
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 Warren instigator

// Spells 4
4 [DS] AEther Vial

There would be 1 card to remove. I can't figure out which one for the moment. Maybe 1 mountain, or 1 among these gobs: Gempalm Incinerator, Warren instigator, Goblin Chieftain and Stingscourger

I'd like also to investigate the tutorable green men toolbox with:
Lightning Crafter
Goblin Sharpshooter
Sparksmith

They all have creature removal abilities.

[Avatara]

If we have more "Lackeys" wouldn't it be logical to drop the number of Warchiefs and replace them with Chieftains? The cost reduction becomes less relevant because we have more ways to cheat goblins into play. This also increases our control match-ups a lot. When a Instigator connects every Matron in your hand is turned into a Siege-Gang Commander. We might even be able to drop the number of Gempalms in favor of more Stingscourgers.

I might also be relevant to note that the Instigator doesn't have to deal combat damage... I dunno if it's possible to exploit that fact in Legacy Goblins.

Maveric78f I guess we had the same idea at the same moment! :)

[Ectoplasm]

How brutal would goblin pyromancer off of his first strike, swing for massive in the 2nd strike step be?

[GreenOne]

How brutal would goblin pyromancer off of his first strike, swing for massive in the 2nd strike step be?

*masturbates furiously*

[MMogg]

How brutal would goblin pyromancer off of his first strike, swing for massive in the 2nd strike step be?

That would have to be a dream hand/play:

Turn 1: Lackey
Turn 2: Lackey --> SGC, cast Instigator
Turn 3: ATTACK! (1st strike damage --> Pyromancer)

Likelihood? 10%?