It sounds kinda like my meta, almost zoo/naya/bant builds where rising up the last days here same for the baseruption/countertop builds and merfolk so i personally turned my list into this:Originally Posted by pippo84
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dreadnought
2 Trinket mage
4 Counterbalance
3 Standstill
3 Divining Top
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
1 Control Magic
3 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Mishras factory
3 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
Sideboard:
2 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
2 Trygon Predator
2 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Firespout
1 Control Magic
I am still not sure if i should cut daze out of the list as i dont feel like 2 are needed at all 3-4 are pretty good but as i said i don't trust the 2 daze strategy. By cutting 2 daze i would add +1 Control Magic +1 Spell Snare so for the countermatchup i would have another slot for the 4th pyroblast (or maybe the red/pyro split).
Also by adding the 2 control magic in the mainboard i would have the Space to keep Submerge in the Sideboard for those slots against aggro or as adition if it goes to the tombstalker matchup.
The rest is pretty basic.
Last edited by Tangle.Wire; 09-03-2009 at 05:43 AM.
@Rodney Hannigan - did you ever test 2-3 Lightning Bolts in the SB against Merfolk / Sui / Zoo / Random Aggro?
If anyone has tested them, how good are they?
Together with Red Blasts a UR Sideboard could look like:
2x blue elemental blast
3x red elemental blast
3x lightning bolt
2x pyroclasm
2x blood moon
1x engineered explosives
2x relic of progenitus
(cutted 1crucible 1blue blast and 1pyroclasm for the bolts to test them)
Greetz, Marius Hausmann
Bolts are fantastic if you have an aggro meta. Lately mine has been infested with zoo and all sorts of tribal (including standard Kithkin.) Bolt + Spout really helps get you ahead.
I played them in the side of a Ugr CounterTop Natural Order build and Bolts came in almost every round.
Tusk up.
I went to the Vestal NYTournament recently in August and took Dread-still I believe 66 players were in attendance.
Here is the list that I used.
Land: 21
4 Waste land
3 Mishra’s factory
3 Islands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Stands
3 Tropical Islands
2 Volcanic Islands
Enchantments: 7
4 Counter Balance
3 Standstill
Instants: 19
4 Force of will
3 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Brainstorm
3 Echoing Return*
Creatures: 9
3 Phyrexian Dreadnoughts
3 Tarmogoyf’s
3 Trinket Mage’s
Other Artifacts: 4
3 Sensi’s Divining top
1 Engineered Explosives
Side:
3 Firespout
3 Krosan Grip
3 Hydro Blast
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Pogenitous
*Ok as for the Echoing returns, I thought I had some spell snares somewhere and I could not find them I debated over putting in 3 Lightning bolts or Fire and Ice as well. Echoing won because overall I thought having the bouce would be the most useful. Echoing returns however, did just about nothing all day besides the Landstill match I played and all it really did was delay my loss.
Here is what I played from memory:
Round 1: Canadian Thresh I believe I pulled this one out 2-0
Round 2: Mono Green Chalice aggro, I get schooled Game 1, I don’t have an answer for a turn 3 Progenitous, and game 2 he gets and early choke and I cant find an answer. Lose 2-0
Round 3: This was against Elf Ball I believe, Game 1 I get owned by a swarm of elves, Game 2 I mull to 5 but have Stifle nought for turn 2 and it goes all the way. Game 3 is remarkably similar but this time I get to keep my opening 7.
Round 4: Dragon stompy, I believe I win game 1 with an early Dreadnought, game two I get beat down by a Magus of the moon and cant find a single answer. Game 3 I counter 3-4 of his early threats and beat him down with just a trinket mage. Win 2-1
Round 5: Tempo Thresh, Game 1 goes to him after I counter one of double goyf’s and then I don’t have a counter for his bounce on my Dreadnought (and yes I am dumb). Game 2 he is in control this game he has counters for all my threats and I get beat down with green men. On a side note, I found out in the beginning of this match that I lost a polluted delta between rounds no one finds it and I’m out 20 dollars I was not very happy. It also got very hot in the store and I was sweating like a whore in church.
Round 6: Landstill, another very skilled opponent that I believe I have played before. Game one he wins I can’t get anything online to stop him. Game 2 ends in a tie as we just stall out. I’m very sorry about he 4 wastelands that game. I lose 1-0-1. I dropped after this.
All in all I love how the deck can play aggressive aggro or be a tight control deck. Not being a regular magic player anymore, I usually pick up a deck in the dark and just see how I do with it. I feel that with this deck if I can polish my play, I might have a better shot at some prizes. I was 3-1 going in to the 5th round had I played better it could have been a first time top 8 for me. As always the Vestal NY tournaments are awesome, everyone I played was extremely nice and patient with me as well which made for an enjoyable day up until I found out I somehow dropped a polluted delta out of my deck.
I run Bolts in my SB now...they're an absolute beating. Don't run pyroclasm it's garbage now...run Firespout. Cut the BEBs for +1 Spout and +1 Bolt and -2 Clasm +2 Firespout. Everything else looks solid.
Also @ Tangle.Wire- I'd cut the 1x Control Magic for a 3rd Daze. IMO it's so valuable in the early game I'd never go below 3.
UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
So, if bolts are sided in most times, why not just find a slot to play 3 MB?
Also, no1 is playing crucible anymore?
In my current list I have 3 CB, but I see everyone plays 4. I play 3 just to find the space for 3 Lightning bolt in the main and 2 crucibles in the side. Comments on this?
My current build, looking forward to improve it until sunday's tournament..
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Standstill
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Firespout
3 Red Elemental Blast
I don't play this deck but i play counter/top engine, so i would drop -1x Engineered Explosives for Sensei's Divining Top. Just because you want it turn 1 and second turn balance. If you are running just 2 of them and trinket mages, you will come in situation where you are holding stifle in hand and you have zero SDT in play and are resolving Trinket mage. Do then fetch naught or SDT? Yup.
Lightning Bolt: Its pretty essential against aggro. I played a bunch against merfolk and I was much more likely to win with Bolt.
I think 2 Bolts are better than having the 4th Counterbalance/3rd Top.
I also cut one of the two EEs for one, as EE feels pretty expensive.
I cut a daze for a pithing needle.
Pithing needle was great against merfolk (Aether Vial), but I am not sure how it is overall. At least its a tutorable answer to a variety of problems.
The best targets for Pithing Needle, meaning most abundant in the metagame, are Sensei's Divining Top, Wasteland and Mishra's Factory. That's why I run it in the sideboard and not main deck. Don't get me wrong, it's a great option to have but it's not easily applicable in most matches given our needs and so I leave it in the side until I see something that I really want to stop.
It's wonderful against Elspeth, or any other Planeswalker, and so it comes in then. It's an answer against Qasali Pridemage so it comes in then. As you point out it's great against Merfolk, Goblins and Survival so it comes in then. Other than that it really doesn't get a lot of play for me. I never see Grindstone or Goblin Charbelcher and there are so few other activated abilities that are killer enough to warrant bringing in an option to pre-emptively shut them down instead of just countering them in the first place.
Hi guys i am going to play 2 tournaments this month so i would like to discuss the list i was thinking about:
3 Dreadnought
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage
2 Trygon Predator
1 Engineered explosives
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Counterbalance
3 Senseis divining top
3 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Island
2 Mishras Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Trygon Predator
3 Submerge
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Firespout
1 Tarmogoyf
Some points to deck+sideboard:
I actually like trygon predator very much as it is excellent against all counterbalance archetypes and will hinder the opponent to cast any threats (ench,arti) aslong as the predator remains in play, also the 2/3 is ok against beating critters.
- By adding the 2 predators i cutted 1 explosives and 1 tarmogoyf (sideboard)
I feel like playing 3 daze mainboard is neccecary against most every aggro/fast deck to survive till i can drop a standstill or counterbalance also for playing fast stifle dreadnoughts daze is needed to protect them.
- Spell Snares also had to remain on 3 for my list as i needed them against goofy as i only would play 2.
Sideboard:
Its pretty basically 3 submerge are for the mostly every matchup running goofy or green at all.
2 Grips are needed as fast removal if trygon doesnt stay in play.
3 Pyroblasts for the blue matchups i would love to play 4 but most of the time i only have 3 slots i want to board out against counter matchups.
- Firespouts great against aggro
- 2 Relic of progenitus only against the loam games i dont have any boarding plans against dredge other than maybe the firespouts.
I'd like to get some thoughts about this list, also i feel like playing 1 needle for the sideboard againat the ultimate walker/landstill (elspeth) matchups also for pridemage/explosives/deeds
So, tomorrow I've got the tournament..
I changed my list a bit and went to 21 lands instead of 20. I know most of you play 21, but 20 was always fine for me. Not sure about this 1. Maybe i'll cut 1 Volcanic island for a daze..
Things I don't like:
61 Cards
2 Daze
but at least i fitted in almost all I wanted (except the 3rd daze..)
The problem of playing 61 cards is that I want a Pithing Needle, MB or SB. But I want one. And don't know what to cut from the SB in case..
I'll go and playtest it now, so maybe I'll make some last minute changes...
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
2 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Standstill
1 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Firespout
3 Red Elemental Blast
I would either cut the Trickbind or an EE to go down to 60. 21 lands works pretty well for me. You could drop an Island or a Volc for Factory or Wasteland #4.
In all honesty, I would cut the Needle, but if you are really heart set on it, then I would cut an E.E.
Team Hammafist
Here's another clash: I know everyone favors Spell Snares but as some baseruption/countertop lists dont run them at all but still beeing successfull i thought why not cut the snares? the most cc2 spells we have to be afraid of are counterbalance, opponent standstills (only sometimes) and a bunch of cc2 creatures so by adding lightning bolt to the mainboard we get answers to the most creature drops unless the tarmogoyf but by running 4 goofy too + dreadnoughts we dont have to be afraid of goofy that much.
Also i run trygon predator and explosives main so i have other solutions for the cc2 drops.
So, the tournament ended.. I placed 12 on 75..
First of, I have to say J.V. was right, needle was not really needed. I used it only once..
And J.V. was right also on 2 Daze. 2 was just fine, never wished to have 1 more, but I'm still not so sure..
21 lands? Dunno, seems 20 is the same even though I lost some games to mana screw..
Well, the list I played is a few posts above.
first round: Solidarity. Having Rebs in the board helped, but the really good thing is stifle and trickbind! Long games that I won just attacking with mishra's.
won 2-1
second round: Combo elevs. I lost the first match for not having counters in hand and the combo passed..
second round i win with firespout and Nought.
third round I lost because I misplayed!! WTF. I had nought, stifle, force in hand and counterbalance without top on the board. I knew he didn't have krosan grip in hand and played nought. Then he plays an elf that does quasali and kill nought so I lose. If I waited 1 more turn I would have had a blue card for Force of will and I would have won. Stupid misplay!!
lost 1-2
third round: pox. It was just really easy. I had counters and stifle-nought in both my opening hands.
won 2-0
fourth round: some aggro bant. I mulled both the matches and had only colorless lands. In 2 games I just managed to drop a goyf that got countered. There has been no match at all. WTF
lost 0-2
fifth round: zoo. Nice match, win the first round countering many things and going down with life. At the end of the match he had a 3/3 on the board and I was at 8 points left. I play nought and win.
second one, i lose having 1 island down and not finding other colorful mana sources.
Third game I just have to say firespout is really strong!!! Sweeped his board, landed countertop and from then on just 1 krosan grip passed on my counterbalance, but it was too late. In the meanwhile I already drew counters and the game has been really easy. I won beating with just mishra's.
won 2-1
sixth round: goblins. First round I start. Top, pass. He casts lackey. I look at my hand, stifle, dreadnought, force of will and no other blue card. Ok, lackey passes. Then I cast nought and win a real fast game.
second round he manages to fill the board. I lose to many goblins having few threats on my side.
third round again Firespout is MVP!! He playes vial, I play EE at 1. After destroying it I play Goyf and counter a few threats. He fills the board with goblins, I land Nought, then cast firespout and attack for the win.
won 2-1
Seventh round: aggro elves. We had an open grudgebecause we had already played against in a tournament months ago. At that time it was to enter top 8 and he won. I wanted revenge!
first round he wins attacking with to many elves for me to stop.
Second round I sweep his board twice (I just love Firespout) and then land nought for the win.
third round I sweep his board and cast goyf. he then manages to get some elves on the board and casts natural order for progenitus. No counters, ouch! I then land nought. I get ten damage from progenitus and he left elves in defence. I attack with mishra, goyf and nought. He blocks and goes to 3 life. I had a lightning bolt in hand from ages and so I win.
won 2-1
So, overall I did 15 points and went 5-0-2. Unfortunately not enought for top 8, but it has been a really nice tournament and I'm quite happy with 12th out of 75.
The mainboard seems really solid, just cut needle to go to 60 cards, and still not sure about 2 Daze and 21 lands, but it isn't a major problem. The rest is optimal.
The sideboard? Perfect for the meta. Really fine. I just sided in crypt against pox for loam, but didn't need it.. Maybe I'll cut 1 crypt for 1 needle in the sideboard, but if I see dredge, with 3 crypts it's muche easier to win..
Thats all!
This is what Spell Snare handles that Lightning Bolt doesn't: Counterbalance, Qasali Pridemage + activate, Survival of the Fittest, Infernal Tutor, Tarmogoyf, Standstill, Runed Halo, Price of Progress, Counterspell, Umezawa's Jitte, Fire/Ice, etc. It handles a lot of the things that will kill you.
What, cut counters??
No way!! If I could I'll also play Counterspell (mmm... maybe instead of daze..). I just love to have counters. Removal is fine, but Lightning Bolt is fine in the Sideboard. Or if you want it cut something else, but not counters!
Btw, a few pages before was my list with Lightning Bolt MD and also Spell snare MD..
I still think Rich Shay's build from SCG5k is the best list packing maindeck burn. The 1-of Ponder could be the 4th CB, but cantrip #5 comes in handy.
Daze really is > Spell Snare in pretty much any deck that isn't Landstill, IMHO. Free counters are that good.
Well first off, congrats on the strong finish, well done! Also just gonna throw it out there, my posts are all based on excessive testing unless I say otherwiseSo, the tournament ended.. I placed 12 on 75..
First of, I have to say J.V. was right, needle was not really needed. I used it only once..
And J.V. was right also on 2 Daze. 2 was just fine, never wished to have 1 more, but I'm still not so sure..
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Oh and just to nit-pick, you went 5-2-0, 5-0-2 would be 17 points (two draws)
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On the topic of cutting spell snares, you are seriously underestimating their purpose they counter the two most important cards in the format Counterbalance and Tarmogoyf (in that order) everthing else is just an added bonus, I would go up to 4 if I could make room for it (I've actually considered going down to 1 Daze for it...) anyways, Lightning bolt doesn't deal with Counterbalance and very rarely deals with Goyf so as far as I'm concerned Lightning Bolt will remain in the board until they add the oracle text counter target CB or Goyf.
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As for counterspell, I've tested with counterspell and while not being terrible I don't recommend it, UU can be a liability and It honestly is two slow for the format, the only reason Landstill can support it is because they run so many sweepers, but even they are cutting CS or reducing it...
Team Hammafist
I agree, no question spell snare is awesome but i think lightning bolt is to weak for the sideboard but if we pack 2 in the mainboard i feel like having a third bolt or either pack 2 fire//ice instead of the bolts as u want to burn critters.Well first off, congrats on the strong finish, well done! Also just gonna throw it out there, my posts are all based on excessive testing unless I say otherwise
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Oh and just to nit-pick, you went 5-2-0, 5-0-2 would be 17 points (two draws)
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On the topic of cutting spell snares, you are seriously underestimating their purpose they counter the two most important cards in the format Counterbalance and Tarmogoyf (in that order) everthing else is just an added bonus, I would go up to 4 if I could make room for it (I've actually considered going down to 1 Daze for it...) anyways, Lightning bolt doesn't deal with Counterbalance and very rarely deals with Goyf so as far as I'm concerned Lightning Bolt will remain in the board until they add the oracle text counter target CB or Goyf.
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As for counterspell, I've tested with counterspell and while not being terrible I don't recommend it, UU can be a liability and It honestly is two slow for the format, the only reason Landstill can support it is because they run so many sweepers, but even they are cutting CS or reducing it...
I also agree that counterspell is quiet to slow for this deck.
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