[Deck] Survival

[hungryboi]

Tarmogoyf is the best card you can draw asides from Survival only conditionally. Although I understand that Goyf is very necessary (I keep 3) I also understand that it's hated out very easily. To be honest, with a diverse meta in Legacy, Survival needs to have a heavy toolbox in order to do well. I hate the fact that I we have to have a large toolbox (including suboptimal cards like wickerbough, flametongue, and macabre) but it's the sad truth. Our job as SA players is to focus on trimming the fat and streamlining our decks to function in any meta with or without survival. This is why Sensei's Divining Top works so well. It's able to smooth out our draws without Survival (drawing less toolbox when you don't have survival out) while allowing us to play without our graveyard. In early game in aggro Meta, I like to see SDT more than Survival just because Survival is so mana dependent. It's not until I establish my Mana base is when I really want to see Survival.

[beastman]

Everything you said points to the fact that you should be playing 4 goyf. Ok, I'll admit he is very easy to kill for a lot of decks, but he can simply win the game on his own, and he is the only card in the deck that is capable of that.

[Brushwagg]

Everything you said points to the fact that you should be playing 4 goyf. Ok, I'll admit he is very easy to kill for a lot of decks, but he can simply win the game on his own, and he is the only card in the deck that is capable of that.

Unless your running Progenitus also.

But I have to agree with you that 4x Goyf should be in the deck. I will admit though that I have started Survival changes with a Goyf, but when it comes to cheap fat dudes Goyf gets it done.

I hate the fact that I we have to have a large toolbox

What to do you mean by large? Are you including the Survival "package" as the "toolbox" creatures? By package I mean Squee, Anger, Genesis, Roffy etc.. , then you might be running the wrong deck.

[hungryboi]

Everything you said points to the fact that you should be playing 4 goyf. Ok, I'll admit he is very easy to kill for a lot of decks, but he can simply win the game on his own, and he is the only card in the deck that is capable of that.

The problem is that the Meta is so spread that a large toolbox is needed (creatures such as macabre, wickerbough, flametongue, BGH). I know a lot of people will disagree with me when I say that I am willing to cut 1x Tarmogoyf for an additional toolbox card. Goyf is a good card and that's why I have 3 in my deck, however, the diverse meta calls for a diverse toolbox. That means that if 1x Goyf has to be cut, then so be it. It's not an easy decision, but it was either 1x goyf, wickerbough, pridemage, Macabre, or flametongue.

[zalachan]

Im always happy to see some activity in this thread, keep it up!

Playing 4 Goyfs seems a must to me. Im playing 4color list and i must say that i really want to see all the goyfs and witnesses in any given game without survival. They are so good at stalling the game until you find survival.

As far as SDT goes.. i know its good, but i still havent tried it, and i probably wont. The problem is, its not a creature and there are other noncreature cards i would rather squeeze in (jitte, vial). It ties your mana the same way as survival does, but it doesnt win the game. However, it does prevent drawing lands in a row and finding a creature to survival. I would play 2 maybe, but i wouldnt cut any of the goyfen/witnesses/discard/STP, so i guess i just cant cut out anything at the moment
What about Sylvan Library? Would you run it?

@hungryboi- i would try to squeeze those creatures in SB, its no good nerfing MD for some random matchups, Swords seem to be so much better than BGH main. I think his hardcost is a bit too black.
Macabre/FTK is for SB for some graveyard/fish hate. If you get any graveyard dependant deck that isnt ichorid (which is kinda bad MU anyway) first game, just try to race them and then board in 2-3 macabres i guess.

[Muela]

I completely agree, well 90% =), with zalachan.

It seems to me, that there's a must-be pack composed by:

4x Birds of Paradise
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Eternal Witness (3 as minimum)
1x Squee
6x Disrupt effects (thoughtseizes and therapies, 6 minimum)

After that, a you-really-want-to-have:

1x Anger
1x Rofellos
1x Genesis
1x Shriekmaw
1x Ingot Chewer (but this is current meta dependent)

Besides, you have to choose the strategy it better adapts to your meta, you like most, you thinks it suits better to your play style, whatever...

I'm also giving some thoughts about the sylvan library on its side it has that doesn't eat your mana, it may act as a shield for survival (getting some hate from it); but on the other hand, SDT allows to fetch creatures (from top) at instant speed and create good situations with no hand. I think I should give it a try, I'll try to find it some space.

However, I disagree with zalachan about MD a macabre/loaming shaman... you can do really good tricks in tarmo-wars (by getting both killed, and you'll recover yours), playing with threshold, annulling volrath's, eternal witnesses...

Has anyone tested with sylvan?

[hungryboi]

For Sylvan Library, it may not be too good at least in my deck since it doesn't dodge my own deed. It's an interesting idea and should be tested. As for the Goyf, I'll figure something to take something out for him.

[Thor]

I went 5-1-1 and lost in the top 4 in a 31 person tourny yesterday with the GBwr list. I may post a tourny report later today.

[Tacosnape]

Just for shits and giggles, I'm testing a list with Bloodghast in it, given that the card has synergy with Survival, Cabal Therapy, -and- Quirion Ranger. The double black has made playing him a little tricky, and it's even trickier finding slots, but at the moment this is what I'm testing:

3 Verdant Marsh
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Forest

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
3 Bloodghast
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Anger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Shriekmaw

[hungryboi]

Bloodghast is interesting. I would test it but I currently have no time. Taco, what's the reasoning to include pridemage over wickerbough? Do you not have heavy counter/top and dragon stompy in your meta?

[Tacosnape]

Bloodghast is interesting. I would test it but I currently have no time. Taco, what's the reasoning to include pridemage over wickerbough? Do you not have heavy counter/top and dragon stompy in your meta?

I don't have a ton of Countertop in my metagame, and I'm not convinced Pridemage isn't better against every other deck in Legacy, Dragon Stompy included. And Wickerbough's clunky against Countertop. If they run Daze and STP, I pretty much need six mana to ensure he's going to do the job, as I need 4 to play him, one to activate him before he's removed, and one to handle Daze. Five is often enough, but not always.

Honestly, I've never found a great way to deal with Counterbalance in the maindeck here. So I pick the guy who's good everywhere else and board Grips.

[Muela]

Has anyone given some thoughts to zendikar's scute mob?

It seems as a cheap finisher...

@Tacosnape How are you doing with the 3x Bloodghast?

[Tacosnape]

Average so far. I'm not sure it's actually helping me with anything. It increases my dependency on graveyard hate and is pretty weak if I don't get a Survival. That said, when I -have- a Survival, he's pretty good.

I think I'd go a different direction if I were going to keep him and go back to something BG with Survival and Zombie Infestation.

[MattH]

I think all good men of conscience can agree that Zombie Infestation is fucking awesome. If you somehow include more than one Krovikan Horror and/or Buried Alive, I'll love you forever.

[Tacosnape]

I think all good men of conscience can agree that Zombie Infestation is fucking awesome. If you somehow include more than one Krovikan Horror and/or Buried Alive, I'll love you forever.

Actually at this point I'd bump the Squee count up, add Basking Rootwalla, and go from there.

[alderon666]

Thinking of building this deck, but I want to use NO Prog combo.

But one thing that makes me wonder, I want to play the BGw version because I think that white has STP and some good white creatures. But is the red splash really worth it?

Advantages:
- Anger providing haste
- Casting Squee!
- Magus of the Moon

Disadvantages:
- Worse mana base
- Anger is a horrible draw without Survival+Fetch/Taiga

The final point is, is the haste worth after all?

[Muela]

...
The final point is, is the haste worth after all?

Absolutely.

That haste has been the diference between winning or losing more than often (anger->rofellos->quirion->masticore is a crazy play which can give you a game pretty easy, as well as getting a sharpshooter with haste into play, and not talking about chaining eternal witness with 'goyfs in your 'yard and attacking with 4+ creatures out of 1 card).

In addition to that, you have pretty good utility creatures in red such as Ingot Chewer, Stingcouger, FtK, Ghitu Slinger...

Apart from that, casting squee smells like you are in serious trouble

[beastman]

I beat a dreadstill player to make T8 of a GPT by hardcasting anger, dodging his CB lock, and doing the last 10 damage with a hardcast anger. It was amazing.

[crow_mw]

I wish burning wish wasn't so slow...

[beastman]

It really doesnt matter that its slow, if you use it properly, its the second best card in the deck.