[Deck] TES - The EPIC Storm

[TiMeWaLk]

That's because there is no "optimal solution," only solutions which have their own advantages and disadvantages. I'm 99% certain tho' that Mystical Tutor is crappy regardless, because a 1cc tutor for Krosan Grip is no better than a Chain of Vapor (as long as Counterbalance can counter the tutor, it's the same as countering the removal spell). There's just no good way to answer Counterbalance once it resolves, that's why I always try to Duress/Empty the Warrens instead of trying to ice skate uphill.

Mystical tutor can be played when CB is still on the stack to search Kgrip, not chain of vapor. This is a really big difference. As you say if CB resolves it will be to late.

The Duress solution is risky since your opponent can just brainstorm to hide his CB while the Empty the Warrens solution requires too much mana IMO.

I would recommand Kgrip.

Shusher is also a solution but I think he will fit better in a slower build with more lands and also a way to destroy CB (with REB as proposed previously).

[BackDr0p]

Mystical tutor can be played when CB is still on the stack to search Kgrip, not chain of vapor. This is a really big difference. As you say if CB resolves it will be to late.

The Duress solution is risky since your opponent can just brainstorm to hide his CB while the Empty the Warrens solution requires too much mana IMO.

Let me put you into perspective, this is TES, not ANT, NLS or DDFT. We do not run 4x Mystical Tutor, nor do we run 14-15 lands. I do admit that from time to time we can, in response MT for K. Grip. Unfortunately more often than not, we will be lacking the necessary mana source to cast the spell or lack the tutor to fetch out our singleton. With that time wasted, most CB players will take advantage of this to float a 3CMC spell on top, or find and drop a second CB to completely lock us out.

As many people mentioned before, TES is a deck that is meant to win before the CB Top soft-lock comes online by using a combination of active and reactive spells (Duress and Pyroblast post-board). Another strategy is to overwhelm the opponent with goblin tokens, forcing him to find a sweeper (EE, E. Truth etc.) or lose. Going the ETW rout is the fastest rout to victory and is surprisingly easy to do when facing a SDT-less CB. Running multiple copies in board is the best way to do this.

Your argument about "not having enough mana" is false. There will be more occasion where you'll be lacking the needed resources to go for a lethal tendrils that ETW. You only need a storm count of 5 for ETW to become a serious threat.

[SuperBean]

Here is my list, those who asked for it:

Although, once Zendikar is released I'll be changing to: -4 Bloodstained Mire +4 Red/Blue Fetch -1 Scrubland +1 Tundra

Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
3x Mystical Tutor
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Orim's Chant
1x Wipe Away

Sorceries:
4x Burning Wish
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
4x Ponder
3x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ill-Gotten Gains

Artifacts:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
2x Chrome Mox
1x Mox Diamond

Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Scrubland

Sideboard:
3x Vexing Shusher
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Shattering Spree
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Thoughtseize
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Echoing Truth

[Skub]

You only a storm count of 5 for ETW to become a serious threat.

True if done within turn 1 or 2. I think you will need to have a protection spell to be able to resolve ETW to avoid FoW, Daze, etc. My experience is that I usally don't have the mana available to cast a protection spell and have enough mana for ETW. Perhaps playing SSG main can help to accomplish this.

[BackDr0p]

You're right. ETW is only viable if cast during the first few turns. Otherwise, it becomes obsolete since the opponent has enough time and tools to find answers. The list that can abuse ETW the most is Breathweapon's as he has access to many 1R mana sources in the form of SSG and Rite of Flame. Running SSG also mitigates Daze allowing us to up our storm count while frustrating our opponent.

Personally, I never go off without protection unless I have prior knowledge to what my opponent is playing (It's not like I'm not gonna inform myself while waiting for other people to finish their round). With combo, I always prefer to take my time to guarantee a win, rather than going all in with a pair of 2's (metaphorically speaking) and screwing myself over.

However, there are occasions where going off "sans protection" cannot be helped.

[Piceli89]

Here is my list, those who asked for it:

Although, once Zendikar is released I'll be changing to: -4 Bloodstained Mire +4 Red/Blue Fetch -1 Scrubland +1 Tundra

Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
3x Mystical Tutor
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Orim's Chant
1x Wipe Away

Sorceries:
4x Burning Wish
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
4x Ponder
3x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ill-Gotten Gains

Artifacts:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
2x Chrome Mox
1x Mox Diamond

Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Scrubland

Sideboard:
3x Vexing Shusher
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Shattering Spree
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Thoughtseize
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Echoing Truth

I don't think your list has much to do with TES. No rainbow lands, the number of them (14), 1 chant, and all the other differences make it more similar to a 4-color ANT build, or to the famous TES hybrid, but with a whole dual 'n' fetch manabase. Does it work?

[BackDr0p]

Looking at the amount of fetches he runs, he should have no trouble getting the colors he needs. The singleton Scrubland is to be used for Orim's chant (which should be Silence IMO). As for the others he should have no trouble getting the right colored lands to cast his spells. Furthermore, the abundance of shuffle effects makes Brainstorm even more broken in this build.

Now the real question is how it fairs when compared to more traditional TES builds? If we look at the 14 lands, 3 Moxen (2 chrome + 1 Diamond) and the number of Mystical Tutors we can see that it has been heavily influenced by ANT lists. What I like about it, is that is can support multiple K. Grips (if the mana base is tweaked) from the board and be able to successfully cast them. I feel that because of these changes Superbean's list may have a more favorable G1 and even better G2, G3 vs CB. By running Shusher in board the Merfolk MU among others, becomes somewhat easier.

But I have to ask, why Cabal Therapy AND Thoughtseize in the SB. Are they supposed to be SB'd in or are they just there as wish targets. How would you feel about Deathmark in one of the slots, to permanently deal with the commonly played hatebears (Teeg, MM, Canonist, Believer). Would you rather stick to the flexibility of being able to get rid of multiple copies of problematic cards via Burning Wish? The problem I'm seeing here is that your only out to these critters, Canonist and Meddling Mage aside, is EOT ET or Wipe Away.

[TiMeWaLk]

Let me put you into perspective, this is TES, not ANT, NLS or DDFT. We do not run 4x Mystical Tutor, nor do we run 14-15 lands. I do admit that from time to time we can, in response MT for K. Grip. Unfortunately more often than not, we will be lacking the necessary mana source to cast the spell or lack the tutor to fetch out our singleton. With that time wasted, most CB players will take advantage of this to float a 3CMC spell on top, or find and drop a second CB to completely lock us out.

As many people mentioned before, TES is a deck that is meant to win before the CB Top soft-lock comes online by using a combination of active and reactive spells (Duress and Pyroblast post-board). Another strategy is to overwhelm the opponent with goblin tokens, forcing him to find a sweeper (EE, E. Truth etc.) or lose. Going the ETW rout is the fastest rout to victory and is surprisingly easy to do when facing a SDT-less CB. Running multiple copies in board is the best way to do this.

Your argument about "not having enough mana" is false. There will be more occasion where you'll be lacking the needed resources to go for a lethal tendrils that ETW. You only need a storm count of 5 for ETW to become a serious threat.

The last list posted on this thread plays 3 mystical tutor and 14 lands and as you said, should be able to cast Kgrip quite easily, therefore I do not really understand your first point (I agree this is not a traditional list).

I think you misundertand me about ETW or I just explain my idea badly. You will not have enough mana if CB is on the board and your opponent reveals a land or something which can cut your mana acceleration. I was not comparing ETW and Tendrils.

[BackDr0p]

I was referring to the "common" TES lists which plays 11-12 lands and 2 Mystical Tutors. Superbean's list is more like a hybrid of two storm archtypes (ANT & TES).

If an opponent blind flips a land, I will by all means, capitalize on the situation. Baiting CB with otherwise unneeded spells first, is a requirement in order to sucessfully play around it. Ignoring the order in which certain spells are played, can cost you games.

[SuperBean]

Yeah, Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy are wish targets, although I have boarded in Cabal Therapy to accompany Duress a few times.

[BackDr0p]

Since you run only 5 pieces of protection main deck as opposed to 7-8 do you find yourself having trouble finding it when needed?

[SuperBean]

I run 6 protection spells before sideboarding, 4x Duress, 1x Wipe Away, 1x Orim's Chant. And no I've never really had an issue finding a protection spell especially when Burning Wish can act as either a bait spell, or a disruption spell from the wish board.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm working on a switch at the moment. I'll let everyone know what it is after I test it. It hasn't been mentioned yet.

[Piceli89]

I'm working on a switch at the moment. I'll let everyone know what it is after I test it. It hasn't been mentioned yet.

We're all waiting to see what you'll get from your magical hat.

[Bryant Cook]

Well fuck it, I'm thinking 1-2 SSG may not be too bad. However, I'm not cutting Mystical or IGG/Tendrils. I'm looking at CoV and Infernal (#4).

[Piceli89]

Well fuck it, I'm thinking 1-2 SSG may not be too bad. However, I'm not cutting Mystical or IGG/Tendrils. I'm looking at CoV and Infernal (#4).

Lolercake. That's what I tried too.

[Jim Higginbottom]

I'm testing cutting the 3rd pyroblast in the board for a silence. As it makes the CB matchup slightly worse it improves every other blue matchup.

[Piceli89]

I'm testing those 2 SSGs and i can say that they're not wonderful, but still they make some difference. But to flip them via AdN still sucks, meh.
The average cost of my build is now 1,22 (counting I'm playing 3 Moxes-which i hate- and 1 Cabal Ritual to avoid shitty hands with 2 moxes. I think putting 2 more initial mana sources makes this doable).

[Piceli89]

Spell Pierce
U
Counter target noncreature spell unless its controller pays 2.

Another dildo in the ass for us. Lol. It seems that Zendikar is the most concentrate set of anti-storm cards. If Tempo Thresh begins to play this, I see it really hard to overcome it. Paired with Daze and LD, it can pretty much fuck up our plans.

[georgjorge]

There are far too many creatures out there for this to be played, I think. It's bad against Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk or Aggro Loam, which all are/were DTBs, not counting random Tarmogoyfs those deck would want to counter as well.