[DTW] Bant Survival

[jeanbathez]

Sower is better in a CB meta. (I dont play any md, 1 sower sb) Hardly ever feel the need in stealing a creature.

Congrats on your finish! Your playskills are improving since last tournament well done. Nice list.

Thank you Waikiki, it's good to hear that !!!! :-)

But i must admit this fault against Canadian Thres Game 1 (forgetting that i have no island) was devasting, but THAT would never happen again, believe me !!!! and cost me perhaps the first place !!!!

I also thought about adding Sower from Main to SB.

The matchup against eternal garden is bad or isn't it, i couldn't handle nultiple wasteland (bisdes Quirion Ranger which i don't had) and how to handle Tabernacle besides getting more hierachs and attacking

[Waikiki]

The deck isn't played here so I hardly considder doing anything against it. My guess is with the new UG fetch we can now play basic island forest and plains. This will help in the waste matchup. Also vs a deck like that I think the best is to get some untargetable creature in your deck ( gigapede perhaps?) together with wonder can do alot of damage. But thats simply a guess I have no experience in that matchup.

[Black Mass]

It's been a while since I've posted my list and I have to say I changed a lot from my previous one thanks to all of your comments here.

manabase
2x forest
4x wooded foothills
4x windswept heath
4x Tropical island
3x savannah
1x Tundra

creatures
4x tarmogoyf
4x noble hierarch
2x quasali pridemage
3x rhox war monk
1x rafiq of the many
1x kira, great glass spinner
1x wonder
1x squee, goblin nabob
1x venidllion clique
1x gilded drake

enchantments
4x survival of the fittest

artifacts
3x aether vial

instants
4x force of will
4x brainstorm
3x spell snare

sideboard
2x tormod's crypt
3x krosan grip
1x genesis
1x spore frog
2x vendillion clique
3x path to exile
1x gaddock teeg
2x meddling mage


explanations
-4x Spellstutter Sprite: I allways felt safe having the around in the deck. Counters you can tutor for, sounds comforting, but in all my testing I never really had the chance to counter game-altering spells. Sure they're great agains removal like StP or bolts, but suck against anything with cc higher than 1. I didn't want to cut back on three, so I decided to scratch them from the main and insert three spell snares and play RWM to have a tutorable blue card for force.

3x rhox war monk: I have allways been hesitant ageins this creature, allthough he's really good, nothing wrong about is. But in my former experience with survival I have allways liked kitchen finks. With reason I think, since he can chump goyf twice, gains you life the minute you play it and can survive a deed. Nonetheless I had to choose RWM because I had cut Spellstutter Sprite thus making the Blue count a littele low. He was actually second on my list, but he'll do.

3x Aether vial: Beastman, you didn't talk shit when you recommended this card. Vial actually belongs in this deck, everytime I see it I'm glad. Why 3 than? I like them early on and the less and less in the late game. They still could be solid draws in the late, you'd start to prefer something else by then. Also I didn't find the room for them.

Gilded drake: Sower seems too expensive form me and is very hard to protect in this deck, even with Kira in the main. Plus, I want to have a vial @2 in play for my goyfs and my pridemages, GD fits the curve in that way too.

I know the deck isn't perfect, but help is very much appreciated. I sure hope it runs good this sunday.

[jeanbathez]

How does Sower work for you, i myself play Gilded Drake and found him better, since protectiong Sower is a bitch.

I think (like Waikiki) i would move my Sower to the SB, atm we don't have too much cb, so most of the time its not needed. I don't like Gilded Drake, when i'am against cb i want sower, in the other games, i think there better things to do, then play a drake...

@Black Mass : I like Sprites and atm i don't want to cut them, perhaps going down to three. Sprite is an allstar, protecing your gyofs, war monks ; or countering spell snare, and whats important, opponent try to play around them in game 2 and 3, which can be a great tempowin ; it can be flashed in before a standstill resolves and and and

[Black Mass]

I know, but I never have 2 mana to spare in the early game and especially not when I played a goyf, with 18 lands I don't think I'll be able to have 4 or more mana on the board. That's where vial coms in, with vial I don't have to worry about spell snare and if I want protection for my creatures I'll fetch Kira. I have chosen quality creatures over utility, making me play a tad more aggressive and putting the opponent in the defensive the first 3 turns, I think (can't say for sure, but it certainly feels that way).
In the whole, my goal was primarily to improve the loam matchup that sucks. I still have the idea that loam is quite heavily played in Belgium and I want to be prepared. I'm quite confident about the choices I made, but I'll know more after sunday.

[Waikiki]

Last tournament in antwerp I saw 1 maybe 2 loam decks out of 51 players.
I think the sb will be able to fix the loam matchup.

imo sprites aren't needed in the early game. cause you will cast beatsticks first. Then hold mana open for sprite or cast survival. proceed to win.

Atm im testing my spellsnare slot to replace them with either mongoose/meddling mage and ...... mother of runes!

[XiaN]

HeHe ... talking about the loam matchup i have something for you.

Because i finally wanted to decide whether i'm on the wrong road with my attempt of Survival Bant or all you guys are wrong ( ). So i took a nearly mirror of Waikiki's list to my playgroup this day and played 10 rounds of magic with it.

And what else to say ... i think i was wrong. But lets go into the details :

I played

1 [P3] Plains (3)
1 [P3] Forest (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [A] Tropical Island
1 [A] Tundra
3 [A] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Wonder

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Path to Exile
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
SB: 1 Trygon Predator

Some notes about the list, befor i go to the MU analysis.

• 18 Lands : Worked out pretty well. But i would only run 18 if you run at least 6 cantrips or AEther Vial. If you're not playing on of those, 19 or better 20 is the call. The deck shines, if it has a lot of mana to play with.
• No basic island : I realy REALY missed that one. I'll fit one in for on Savannah.
• No AEther Vial : I miss them. They are really good on the first few turns and the worst topdeck ever. I think its dedicated to the way you want to run the deck. If you want to be the aggressor play them, if you are the "ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh" like player ... don't run them.
• 2 RWM | 2 QPM : Seems fine for me. A meta call to run either 2 or 3 of them. If you're in a mixed meta like mine, play 2 each.
• Kira and Predator in the SB : See above. I think they belong to the SB ( but have fixed slots there ), but this depends on your meta.
• 3 Spell Snare : Def. better then daze. I really like them, but have to test them more. Their debut was really good.
• My SB : A leftover from my list. Really random and you should not run it.
• -> Path was nice. Needs more testing.
• -> Teeg seems good in controll and combo MUs, but has allways been to slow against combo for me. Will be reduced to 1 and replaced by the new AntiCombo trap ( holy lord ... i love this trap )
• -> Genesis : Seems fine, but i never boarded it in ... never since the last 40 matches
• -> 1 RWM, 1 QPM, 1 Kira, Predator : Fixed slots for me
• -> 1 Meddling Mage : Allways boarded it against combo, but only won one game out of 30 matches. Will be cutted for the new trap.

Ok, then back to the MU. I tested 3 games against a mid-experienced loam player and 7 games against a highly skilled Threshold player with a established Threshold UGwb list. I like this matchup, because the games are very skill intensive and in my opinion its the deck we have to compare our build against.

If you want to have fun with our build, play against very experienced Zoo or Thresh lists and players. These MUs are the real fun ... at least for me

LoaM : MU

*As quick note : i hate this deck. Not in the negative way, but it's as synergistic as Affinity was before the banning. Whatever you handle, they have a new thread every fucking draw they have. An annoying MU. Played against this list. This list was developed by a player in my test group ( Christian ), is the most established list of Aggro Loam around the world, but the player i faced replaced Goyfs with Terravore because of budget reasons*

Played 3 matches and won 3 of them. Played a lot of matches against it before.

Some tips for this MU :

• Do not ... under any circumstances overextend on your manabase : What ever you do, never EVER play all the lands you have in hand. Grow your manabase to 3-4 lands AND STAY THERE. Allways have the mana to post-dreams times in hand. If you're low on mana, ALLWAYS keep a counter for the dreams. ALLWAYS!
• Fetch for basics : Sounds hard, because we need a lot of colored mana, but fetch for basics. If you have the counter for dreams, you might fetch some nonbasics, but look out for the Wasteland/Loam lock.
• Postboard the MU gets a lot better. Get in some Paths and clear every dude they play. Keep a counter for the assault and you should be fine. You might let a dreams resolve as well, as long as you have the land and removal in hand for their next dude.
• Ravens Crime sux as hell. Most likely MVP against us

Threshold UGwb

Played 7 matches and won 4 without boarding and 2 after boarding. Lost one due to manaflood, after a very very strong hand ( 2 Goyfs, 2 Survival, 1 Ponder, 1 Brainstrom, 1 Tropical Island ... but 10 lands after this ). Played against a list with 2-3 Clique, 4 cb/top, 4 force/daze, 4 Bob, 4 Swords, 3-4 Jitte, Shakles, no Goose and ... well all the rest main. In the SB he had all the hate against us ... 3 Threads of Disloyality, more Shackles and Path. He sided out 4 CB and 1-2 Tops for these the games we sideboarded.

Not much to say here. A pretty even MU. Shine via your Softskills : Trashtalk, get some information about your oponents hand via body language and the information you get via trash talk. Imo this is the key to this matchup.

But some tips :

• Your spot removal is golden in this mu. They play very few threads. You can easyly block their Goose, but keep rid of their Bobs.
• Survival is MVP here. You can only win this MU via CA. Play Survival only if you're sure that it will comes down. Most likely its gg then.
• Slow role : No need the hurry in this MU. Try to let them take the aggressor part. Really let them ... no better position you can have here.

I sided out 2 RMW, 2 Ponder and 1 Spell snare for 1 Kira, 1 Predator, 1 QPM and 2 Grips in both SB-MU's. Kira was REALLY good in both games.

Yeah and thats it ... don't know about my list ... fun to play, but the more fixed lists are simply better. CB/Top doesn't belong to this deck, but i'm still fighting with the Sprites. 3 was fine ( nn 4 ), but they still suck because of every reason mentioned above

[Black Mass]

Last tournament in antwerp I saw 1 maybe 2 loam decks out of 51 players.
I think the sb will be able to fix the loam matchup.

imo sprites aren't needed in the early game. cause you will cast beatsticks first. Then hold mana open for sprite or cast survival. proceed to win.

Atm im testing my spellsnare slot to replace them with either mongoose/meddling mage and ...... mother of runes!

It has been a while since my last tournament, but lately I was never happy to see a sprite. Or they had an answer to turn 2 goyf right away, or they only came late game where a 1/1 flyer doesn't add that much to your board. Spell snare, even only in 3's seems a much more solid in the early game especially against combo, thresh and loam. BUT tomorrow is my final testing day before sunday and I'll try them as a 3 off.

[Waikiki]

I wish you good luck sunday, I won't be able to make it due to obligations.

[losada]

HI, I'm a spanish player. The meta here is very clear: landstill, merfolks, cb and goyfslight/naya. Combo is not played, and loam and rock are coming back. At the moment, the list i'm running is:

4 x Flooded Strand
3 x Windswept heath
4 x Tropical Island
3 x Savannah
1 x Tundra
1 x Forest
1 x Plain
1 x Island

4 x Survival of the fittest
4 x Aether vial
4 x Force of will
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Swords to plowshares
4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Noble hierarch
4 x Spellstutter sprite
3 x Qasali pridemage
2 x Rhox war monk
2 x Vendilion clique
1 x Squee
1 x Wonder
1 x Trygon predator

My side looks like this (I usually change it in ever tournament).
1 x Genesis
1 x Spore frog
1 x Rhox war monk
1 x Trygon predator
1 x Jotun grunt
1 x Gaddock Teeg
3 x Meddling mage
2 x Krosan grip
3 x Relic of progenitus
1 x I dont remember right now, xD

I'm very happy with spellstutter, with vial is awesome. But i'm thinking to change 1 of them into a Kira. Vendilion is also great. Maybe a Shower instead of 1 of them

[XiaN]

Hi losada

On your manabase : I would consider adding one more Heath for one Savannah. Fetching > Drawing the land you want to fetch for ( aka dual ).

And Spellsnare seems to be a must include in your meta. Hits every key relevant card for just U ... i would take it

The vial seems to be fine too. But i would reduce it to 3. You never really want to draw more then one each game and with a little more cantriping ( Ponder ) it'll be on your hand almost every time.

I would cut one RWM, because you don't need the lifegain in the most faced MUs in your meta. I would even go down to 2 QPM, but thats personal taste. 3 may be fine.

And go down to 3 Sprites. Thats just the right number to run. Maybe, but only maybe you'll run 4, because of the Swords heavy meta you face. 3 Sprites is the way to go imo. Crappy 1/1 flyer ( See above for more explanation )

I would consider running 3 Ponder main, because they make your 18 land manabase much more solid and feed your goyf with the much needed sorcery. ( Realy missed that sorcery in some games )

1 x Genesis
1 x Spore frog
1 x Rhox war monk
1 x Trygon predator
1 x Jotun grunt
1 x Gaddock Teeg
3 x Meddling mage
2 x Krosan grip
3 x Relic of progenitus
1 x I dont remember right now, xD

You don't need Spore Frog or Genesis in your meta. Nether do they destroy all stuff like in a DeathGuy Ale meta, nor do you face a lot of really aggressiv aggro ( like goblins ). Cut them and you'll be happy

3 Meddling Mage ... yeah well, if you see no combo in your meta, there is no reason to run more then one.

Jotun Grund is crap all day long. You don't need an advanced aggro-mu, because most likely you'll be the passive deck. And even in the aggro-mu's : you'll shrunk you own goyf's for a temp. 4/4? This guy is simply wrong in this deck, even in the sb

And Relic of Progenitus is simply wrong in your sb, too. Want to remove your Wonder and Squee for them? You want to shrink your goyfs down to 0/1 when your opp is on 3-4 life? No way! If you fear graveyards ( against dredge or loam ) run crypts. Really, RoP is one of the best sb hate against us and you'll board it in preboard. Nice aid for your enemy

And even ( see my tips above ) you should not lose against Thresh builds. For loam its get harder, but it's doable.

[Jak]

The vial seems to be fine too. But i would reduce it to 3. You never really want to draw more then one each game and with a little more cantriping ( Ponder ) it'll be on your hand almost every time.

The best time for Vial is early so reducing the chances of seeing it in your opening hand is wrong.

I would cut one RWM, because you don't need the lifegain in the most faced MUs in your meta. I would even go down to 2 QPM, but thats personal taste. 3 may be fine.

He said he had Zoo and Goyf Sligh in his metagame. I don't understand why you would suggest cutting this.

And go down to 3 Sprites. Thats just the right number to run. Maybe, but only maybe you'll run 4, because of the Swords heavy meta you face. 3 Sprites is the way to go imo. Crappy 1/1 flyer ( See above for more explanation )

I don't think there is a set number of Sprites to run. The card is just better with the more Faeries you run so a 4 of makes it more powerful oviously. Now, the question is, what is the right number to run it if you just need it for the Pro-Swords?

I would consider running 3 Ponder main, because they make your 18 land manabase much more solid and feed your goyf with the much needed sorcery. ( Realy missed that sorcery in some games )

18 Lands is really fine with 4 Vials and 4 Hierarch. Builds with Vial just don't have the room for Ponder and adding it means cutting creatures which then just weakens both of your main cards, Vial and Survival.

You don't need Spore Frog or Genesis in your meta. Nether do they destroy all stuff like in a DeathGuy Ale meta, nor do you face a lot of really aggressiv aggro ( like goblins ). Cut them and you'll be happy

I agree with you on the Spore Frog, but Genesis is amazing against landstill and The Rock, which he does see. I don't really understand this paragraph.

3 Meddling Mage ... yeah well, if you see no combo in your meta, there is no reason to run more then one.

Mage is also for Loam and Control, not just combo. I would try cutting one for another Gaddock Teeg to even things up. The combo wins versus control.

Edit-

HeHe ... talking about the loam matchup i have something for you.

Because i finally wanted to decide whether i'm on the wrong road with my attempt of Survival Bant or all you guys are wrong ( ). So i took a nearly mirror of Waikiki's list to my playgroup this day and played 10 rounds of magic with it.

And what else to say ... i think i was wrong. But lets go into the details :

At least you are coming around :)

Ok, then back to the MU. I tested 3 games against a mid-experienced loam player and 7 games against a highly skilled Threshold player with a established Threshold UGwb list. I like this matchup, because the games are very skill intensive and in my opinion its the deck we have to compare our build against.

If you want to have fun with our build, play against very experienced Zoo or Thresh lists and players. These MUs are the real fun ... at least for me

LoaM : MU

*As quick note : i hate this deck. Not in the negative way, but it's as synergistic as Affinity was before the banning. Whatever you handle, they have a new thread every fucking draw they have. An annoying MU. Played against this list. This list was developed by a player in my test group ( Christian ), is the most established list of Aggro Loam around the world, but the player i faced replaced Goyfs with Terravore because of budget reasons*

Played 3 matches and won 3 of them. Played a lot of matches against it before.

Some tips for this MU :

• Do not ... under any circumstances overextend on your manabase : What ever you do, never EVER play all the lands you have in hand. Grow your manabase to 3-4 lands AND STAY THERE. Allways have the mana to post-dreams times in hand. If you're low on mana, ALLWAYS keep a counter for the dreams. ALLWAYS!
• Fetch for basics : Sounds hard, because we need a lot of colored mana, but fetch for basics. If you have the counter for dreams, you might fetch some nonbasics, but look out for the Wasteland/Loam lock.
• Postboard the MU gets a lot better. Get in some Paths and clear every dude they play. Keep a counter for the assault and you should be fine. You might let a dreams resolve as well, as long as you have the land and removal in hand for their next dude.
• Ravens Crime sux as hell. Most likely MVP against us

How did you SB? I always have trouble SBing against it because my SB is chocked full of cards I want to bring in. Mage, Snare, Paths, and Grips. I usually take out 2 War Monk (leaving one), 4 Sprites, 2 ??? (I guess it depends on what I am feeling at the time. Could be the 3rd Monk, Cliques, Mongeese, etc), and 1 Trygon for 2 Grips, 2 Mage, 3 Spell Snare, and 2 Path.

Threshold UGwb

Played 7 matches and won 4 without boarding and 2 after boarding. Lost one due to manaflood, after a very very strong hand ( 2 Goyfs, 2 Survival, 1 Ponder, 1 Brainstrom, 1 Tropical Island ... but 10 lands after this ). Played against a list with 2-3 Clique, 4 cb/top, 4 force/daze, 4 Bob, 4 Swords, 3-4 Jitte, Shakles, no Goose and ... well all the rest main. In the SB he had all the hate against us ... 3 Threads of Disloyality, more Shackles and Path. He sided out 4 CB and 1-2 Tops for these the games we sideboarded.

Not much to say here. A pretty even MU. Shine via your Softskills : Trashtalk, get some information about your oponents hand via body language and the information you get via trash talk. Imo this is the key to this matchup.

But some tips :

• Your spot removal is golden in this mu. They play very few threads. You can easyly block their Goose, but keep rid of their Bobs.
• Survival is MVP here. You can only win this MU via CA. Play Survival only if you're sure that it will comes down. Most likely its gg then.
• Slow role : No need the hurry in this MU. Try to let them take the aggressor part. Really let them ... no better position you can have here.

I sided out 2 RMW, 2 Ponder and 1 Spell snare for 1 Kira, 1 Predator, 1 QPM and 2 Grips in both SB-MU's. Kira was REALLY good in both games.

Yeah and thats it ... don't know about my list ... fun to play, but the more fixed lists are simply better. CB/Top doesn't belong to this deck, but i'm still fighting with the Sprites. 3 was fine ( nn 4 ), but they still suck because of every reason mentioned above

[/QUOTE]

I don't understand why Threshold would board out CB...

You also said the deck had no Goose, but you also said our creatures can block them... Are you just talking about in general?

Sounds like your testing went well. I am glad you are liking the deck.

[XiaN]

The best time for Vial is early so reducing the chances of seeing it in your opening hand is wrong.

Yes of cause, but thats a taste of how you play this deck. If you're on the reactive side, you let their CB resolve and play around it. If you play active, you'll simply Spellsnare it and go on. And ... yeah well we should finally decide, when Vial is needed. Imo ( and i might be wrong ) Vial is not needed. Tested it for over 50 matches and yes the vial is very nice, but you don't need it for our plan.

The difference of vialing in a creature at the end of the opps turn and simply playing it in your turn is 1! mana. All you need the react in on an opps turn is one Tundra open. You'd either play StP or Spellsnare to respond to their threads or play the Force, where you don't need mana open. At best you need 2 mana open : One for the response to their thread ( Snare or StP ) and one for Brainstorm action or two mana for the Sprite. I don't see any reason for the Vial, except that you might need the pseudo haste ( eot creature ... ) in an aggro heavy meta. But in an control heavy meta you most likely want the counter their thread, then to pseudo haste.

He said he had Zoo and Goyf Sligh in his metagame. I don't understand why you would suggest cutting this.

You should win the Sligh matchup anyway ( see above ) and against Zoo the RWM is MVP, no doubt. If he sees a lot of "burn" coming up, play the second RWM, but with mostly Sligh/Thresh/ITF coming up they are not needed. A metagame call. Facing a mixed meta i would never go below 2 RWM.

I don't think there is a set number of Sprites to run. The card is just better with the more Faeries you run so a 4 of makes it more powerful oviously. Now, the question is, what is the right number to run it if you just need it for the Pro-Swords?

In my personal taste i would run 3 Sprite 2 Clique or 4 Sprite 0 Clique. On his meta i would never ever cut the cliques, because they are just ridiculously good against control ( at the end of your draw step in your face and you can choose to not remove a card and not let them draw a new card ).

18 Lands is really fine with 4 Vials and 4 Hierarch. Builds with Vial just don't have the room for Ponder and adding it means cutting creatures which then just weakens both of your main cards, Vial and Survival.

Yeah, but without the Vial its pretty hard to face a wall of 4 stifle and 4 wasteland. Correctly played ( see above ) you should be in pretty good shape as well against Thresh/ITF/Whatever.

If you don't run Vials ( and even with vials ) you need stabilize you manabase. If you hold the 1 Land 1 Hierarch 1 Vial + x land against a Thresh build you are most likely to loose this game, because you're totally out of the game with one KGrip.

I agree with you on the Spore Frog, but Genesis is amazing against landstill and The Rock, which he does see. I don't really understand this paragraph.

You'll win the Landstill MU anyway .. post and preboard. And how'd you like to pay Genesis after a Dreams hit you?

Mage is also for Loam and Control, not just combo. I would try cutting one for another Gaddock Teeg to even things up. The combo wins versus control.

For combo the mage is to slow. In my meta, you'll never reach turn 2 on the play in allmost 80% of the games against combo. And what to hit with that mage against controll? Swords? But then you'll need Path in the SB ( which isn't a bad idea imo ). Against loam ... yeah well ... hit DDream and then they will will kill the mage via SAssault and kill you anyway.

And like i stated above, correctly played and with a bit of luck on your side, you may win this mu anyway. And even better you can Crypt away their draw/wasteland engine.

How did you SB? I always have trouble SBing against it because my SB is chocked full of cards I want to bring in. Mage, Snare, Paths, and Grips. I usually take out 2 War Monk (leaving one), 4 Sprites, 2 ??? (I guess it depends on what I am feeling at the time. Could be the 3rd Monk, Cliques, Mongeese, etc), and 1 Trygon for 2 Grips, 2 Mage, 3 Spell Snare, and 2 Path.

I did no SB against him. If i would run crypt in the sb, i would bring them in.

I don't understand why Threshold would board out CB...

You also said the deck had no Goose, but you also said our creatures can block them... Are you just talking about in general?

Because Threads of D. are simply better against us then CB. We can easily play around the CB with RWM and Rafiq with wonder.

And yes, we can easily block their Gooses. So the MVP against other decks is simply a chumpblock for us ( Clique, Gofy, Rafiq .. ).

Sounds like your testing went well. I am glad you are liking the deck.

From the beginning ... this deck is great

[Jak]

Yes of cause, but thats a taste of how you play this deck. If you're on the reactive side, you let their CB resolve and play around it. If you play active, you'll simply Spellsnare it and go on. And ... yeah well we should finally decide, when Vial is needed. Imo ( and i might be wrong ) Vial is not needed. Tested it for over 50 matches and yes the vial is very nice, but you don't need it for our plan.

Again, I am not understanding what you are saying, and I doubt you are understanding me. Vial is better turn 1 than it is turn 4. Are you disputing this? You also go on about reactive and active which I don't think you understand. Countering their Counterbalance with Snare is the reactive play.

I am not saying the deck needs Vial, what I am saying is that if you run it (which there is incentive to run it), running 4 gives you the best chance of having it when Vial is at its best.

The difference of vialing in a creature at the end of the opps turn and simply playing it in your turn is 1! mana. All you need the react in on an opps turn is one Tundra open. You'd either play StP or Spellsnare to respond to their threads or play the Force, where you don't need mana open. At best you need 2 mana open : One for the response to their thread ( Snare or StP ) and one for Brainstorm action or two mana for the Sprite. I don't see any reason for the Vial, except that you might need the pseudo haste ( eot creature ... ) in an aggro heavy meta. But in an control heavy meta you most likely what the counter for their thread, then the pseudo haste.

Again, what are you talking about? Vial accelerates the deck, provides instant speed blockers, allows you to spend your mana on Survival, Brainstorm, Swords, etc while you still play creatures, allows your creatures to get by counters, etc. There are numerous reasons to run the card. It sounds like you think the card is bad because we can already do stuff on the opponent's turn, which isn't the reason Vial is run at all.

You should win the Sligh matchup anyway ( see above ) and against Zoo the RWM is MVP, no doubt. If he sees a lot of "burn" coming up, play the second RWM, but with mostly Sligh/Thresh/ITF coming up they are not needed. A metagame call. Facing a mixed meta i would never go below 2 RWM.

Do you know what Sligh is? It is a deck packed with burn and efficient creatures. Think Zoo, but with more burn. In a meta with Zoo and Sligh, running more than 1 is optimal. I think running three would serve losada better. I believe you are just confusing Sligh with another deck similar to a Counterbalance deck.

In my personal taste i would run 3 Sprite 2 Clique or 4 Sprite 0 Clique. On his meta i would never ever cut the cliques, because they are just ridiculously good against control ( at the end of your draw step in your face and you can choose to not remove a card and not let them draw a new card ).

I never said to cut the Cliques. Cliques are amazing and probably my favorite creature in the deck. What I am questioning is the right number of Sprites which no one has the answer for.

Yeah, but without the Vial its pretty hard to face a wall of 4 stifle and 4 wasteland. Correctly played ( see above ) you should be in pretty good shape as well against Thresh/ITF/Whatever.

If you don't run Vials ( and even with vials ) you need stabilize you manabase. If you hold the 1 Land 1 Hierarch 1 Vial + x land against a Thresh build you are most likely to loose this game, because you're totally out of the game with one KGrip.

I know how to face mana denial, thanks, and with 18 lands, 4 Hierarchs, and 4 Vials, you shouldn't have a problem. The new fetch just improves the mana base.

I fail to see how 2 lands, Hierarch, and a Vial will be easily disrupted. They can't even cast the Grip until turn 3, so even if you do somehow get mana screwed with 2-3 draws, more lands should be there.

You'll win the Landstill MU anyway .. post and preboard. And how would you like to pay Genesis after a Dreams hit you?

Landstill doesn't play Dreams... It does run Wrath of God, EE, Vindicate, and Disk though so being able to keep resurfacing through all the removal is what will win you the game.

For combo the mage is to slow. In my meta, you'll never reach turn 2 on the play in allmost 80% of the games against combo. And what to hit with that mage against controll? Swords? But then you'll need Path in the SB ( which isn't a bad idea imo ). Against loam ... yeah well ... hit DDream and then they will will kill the mage via SAssault and kill you anyway.

And like i stated above, correctly played and with a bit of luck on your side, you may win this mu anyway. And even better you can Crypt away their draw/wasteland engine.

Mage versus combo is not too slow. You do realize that there are other ways of disrupting them, right? They will be slowed down so you can then drop the Mage. Against control you hit their removal like Swords. If they have a recursion thing going, like EE or Loam, hit it. Control varies too much for me to give you an exact answer. Against Loam, you name Loam... You have answers for DD and Assault already.

Because Threads of D. are simply better against us then CB. We can easily play around the CB with RWM and Rafiq with wonder.

And yes, we can easily block their Gooses. So the MVP against other decks is simply a chumpblock for us ( Clique, Gofy, Rafiq .. ).

We can also easily play around Threads with RWM, Rafiq, and Wonder... Grip as well. Counterbalance is still good against us like it is the other 80% of the format.

I asked you how Mongoose magically showed up in your tips when you said it wasn't in the list, not if you could chump block it...

[losada]

I am not saying the deck needs Vial, what I am saying is that if you run it (which there is incentive to run it), running 4 gives you the best chance of having it when Vial is at its best.

+1. I think that if you run vial, you want see it in your opening hand.

In a meta with Zoo and Sligh, running more than 1 is optimal. I think running three would serve losada better.

I think 2 is the correct number. The third is in side, and i have my doubts about it...

I never said to cut the Cliques. Cliques are amazing and probably my favorite creature in the deck. What I am questioning is the right number of Sprites which no one has the answer for.

Cliques are powerful. With Vial is great, but also if you don`t have Vial, flash is amazing too. Two is the number. If you must remove it with FOW, you have the second one.

Mage versus combo is not too slow. You do realize that there are other ways of disrupting them, right? They will be slowed down so you can then drop the Mage. Against control you hit their removal like Swords. If they have a recursion thing going, like EE or Loam, hit it. Control varies too much for me to give you an exact answer. Against Loam, you name Loam... You have answers for DD and Assault already.

I also think, like Jak, that you can play mage against a lot of decks that are not combo: Canadian Threshold, Loam, Landstill, Rock with Loam...

I'm thinking about spellsnare. And yes, I must include Tormods instead Relic... Yesterday, playing against a Survival Elf, and I have no way to win. A lot of good creatures for only 4 swords and 4 fows...

[Waikiki]

In a mete with zoo/sligh I would never go down to running less then 2 rhox war monk maindeck. and at least 1 sb. They are really needed in this matchup.

Personally I would not run vial at all. Its a sucky topdeck and its really not needed at all imo. (I never have problems getting my creatures through or wanting the vial) IMO ponder is just way stronger (upping blue count + card quality)

Personally im very happy with my list and currently testing out the mongooses in the spell snare slot for a more aggro meta. They are really strong so far. Looking forward in testing mother of runes.

[XiaN]

Vial is better turn 1 than it is turn 4. Are you disputing this?

YEEEESSSSSS ... Turn 18 is even better then the turn 1 vial *irony*

You also go on about reactive and active which I don't think you understand. Countering their Counterbalance with Snare is the reactive play.

I mistaked this one. Of cause countering the balance is the reactive play and vial the active one

I believe you are just confusing Sligh with another deck similar to a Counterbalance deck.

And again you're right. I know what Sligh is, but i was kind of confused yesterday

What I am questioning is the right number of Sprites which no one has the answer for.

And thats why i throw the 3 Sprite / 2 Clique or 4 Sprite / 0 Clique split into the discussion. I never said, that you said to cut the cliques

I fail to see how 2 lands, Hierarch, and a Vial will be easily disrupted. They can't even cast the Grip until turn 3, so even if you do somehow get mana screwed with 2-3 draws, more lands should be there.

I actually played and lost that hand. He was on the play with land go. I played fetch, he stifled. He played land go, i played dual and vial. He played land go. I put a counter on my vial and passed. I draw-go, i vialed in hierarch, had no play and lost to a EE @ one followed with a wasteland one turn later.

Landstill doesn't play Dreams... It does run Wrath of God, EE, Vindicate, and Disk though so being able to keep resurfacing through all the removal is what will win you the game.

I know that landstill doesn't play dreams. But you mentioned that Genesis will help in the LoaM MU and i don't think it does. Facing recurring wasteland, EE and you need at least 5 mana sources to efficiently recure cump blocker for their crushers. Maybe i'm playing against the wrong LoaM decks, but i'm happy to perm. get 3 lands in play in this matchup. And in most of my games against loam i never exceeded 3 lands.

And landstill runs only EE here.

Mage versus combo is not too slow.

In my experience it is, but that might differ from the combo's played at your tournaments. They get rid of it here via discard, chant, creature hate maindeck and more discard.

Against control you hit their removal like Swords.

I like the plan with path/mage in the SB, but i always argued with myself. We have Sprites and Kira for it. What does the mage, that Sprites and Kira don't do?

Against Loam, you name Loam... You have answers for DD and Assault already.

Against LoaM play Crypt or Faerie Macabre. Imo the mage is just to vulnerable to their maindeck plan.

I asked you how Mongoose magically showed up in your tips when you said it wasn't in the list, not if you could chump block it...

I was just thinking in general. We ( or at least i ) don't fear him like i would with other decks. And to be honest, i don't fear CB, too.

And we can argue about Vial for a long time with no real end. I personally don't think it fits here for numerous reasons :

• Ponder solids the manabase, helps finding survival, get the sorcery for goyf, helps digging for answers and ensure card quality. Things that Vial does not.
• When do you gamebreaking need the "Instant blockers". If an opponent faces a survival, a vial and open mana he knows whats coming and most likely has an answer in hand if he's attacking.
• I'm not saying that its bad to play stuff in an opponents turn, but do we really need the eot goyf?
• What i was trying to say was, that infact we only need 2 or 1 mana open during an opponents turn to react. Thats why we can easily play the goyf in our turn and survival/brainstorm/sword/spellsnare with the one mana left. No need to keep 3 mana open and vial him in.
• Getting creatures in play through a cb is nice, but like i said before : We can do that without vial, too. RWM/Rafiq and so on.
• Due to our relatively low creature count, we need an online survival to really feed the vial. Most likely you win with an online survival anyway. With or without vial.

And please don't take my arguments personal.

[Jak]

YEEEESSSSSS ... Turn 18 is even better then the turn 1 vial *irony*

Okay, so then running it as a 4 of is what we agree on? That is, if you decide to run the card at all. 4 or 0 is what it should be at.

And thats why i throw the 3 Sprite / 2 Clique or 4 Sprite / 0 Clique split into the discussion. I never said, that you said to cut the cliques

Well, basically I don't think you can cut Cliques. I would rather you cut the Sprites before the Cliques.

I actually played and lost that hand. He was on the play with land go. I played fetch, he stifled. He played land go, i played dual and vial. He played land go. I put a counter on my vial and passed. I draw-go, i vialed in hierarch, had no play and lost to a EE @ one followed with a wasteland one turn later.

So he drew awesome and you drew nothing in three turns. Shit happens man, it doesn't mean you need to change anything. More testing is needed.

And why would you Vial in a Hierarch with an EE in play? Or did he play the EE turn 4 after you didn't draw anything again? Seriously, the deck just bummed out in that situation.

I know that landstill doesn't play dreams. But you mentioned that Genesis will help in the LoaM MU and i don't think it does. Facing recurring wasteland, EE and you need at least 5 mana sources to efficiently recure cump blocker for their crushers. Maybe i'm playing against the wrong LoaM decks, but i'm happy to perm. get 3 lands in play in this matchup. And in most of my games against loam i never exceeded 3 lands.

I never said Genesis was good against Loam... I posted my boarding startegy against Loam just a bit ago and Genesis is not being brought in.

And landstill runs only EE here.

No Wrath of God? No Disk? I would still bring in Genesis here since it means recurring Mongoose.

In my experience it is, but that might differ from the combo's played at your tournaments. They get rid of it here via discard, chant, creature hate maindeck and more discard.

Still, it is an obstacle that they have to work through which makes them expend resources, which means you are slowing them down, which gives you the best possibility to win.

I like the plan with path/mage in the SB, but i always argued with myself. We have Sprites and Kira for it. What does the mage, that Sprites and Kira don't do?

When I bring in Mage to name Swords against Landstill, I would not be bringing in Paths... Mage is more versatile than Kira since it can be brought in to a variety of MUs.

Against LoaM play Crypt or Faerie Macabre. Imo the mage is just to vulnerable to their maindeck plan.

If you land Mage naming Loam and hold one counter for their DD, you win. I really don't know what recent Loam lists are looking like since they are so varied. Against the one you played, the only thing that would stop that plan from working are 1 Pulse and 2 EE.

I was just thinking in general. We ( or at least i ) don't fear him like i would with other decks. And to be honest, i don't fear CB, too.

Okay, nvm. You don't understand what I was asking.

And we can argue about Vial for a long time with no real end. I personally don't think it fits here for numerous reasons :

• Ponder solids the manabase, helps finding survival, get the sorcery for goyf, helps digging for answers and ensure card quality. Things that Vial does not.
• When do you gamebreaking need the "Instant blockers". If an opponent faces a survival, a vial and open mana he knows whats coming and most likely has an answer in hand if he's attacking.
• I'm not saying that its bad to play stuff in an opponents turn, but do we really need the eot goyf?
• What i was trying to say was, that infact we only need 2 or 1 mana open during an opponents turn to react. Thats why we can easily play the goyf in our turn and survival/brainstorm/sword/spellsnare with the one mana left. No need to keep 3 mana open and vial him in.
• Getting creatures in play through a cb is nice, but like i said before : We can do that without vial, too. RWM/Rafiq and so on.
• Due to our relatively low creature count, we need an online survival to really feed the vial. Most likely you win with an online survival anyway. With or without vial.

I don't play Vial, for the record (which I have said numerous times before). All I was saying is that it is either a 4 of or a none of and that the people playing it have strong reasons to play it.

And please don't take my arguments personal.

Oh, I definitely do not. I like having discussions about the deck like this.

[XiaN]

Okay, so then running it as a 4 of is what we agree on? That is, if you decide to run the card at all. 4 or 0 is what it should be at.

I would consider running only 3 if you have 7 cantrips.

and that the people playing it have strong reasons to play it.

What reasons would they have to run it?

So he drew awesome and you drew nothing in three turns. Shit happens man, it doesn't mean you need to change anything. More testing is needed.

And why would you Vial in a Hierarch with an EE in play? Or did he play the EE turn 4 after you didn't draw anything again? Seriously, the deck just bummed out in that situation.

No, he just drew normal. 1 Stifle, 1 Wasteland and 1 EE is no god draw
And he played the EE after i vialed in the hierarch. Think i drew RWM, Clique and Rafiq on my turns.

When I bring in Mage to name Swords against Landstill, I would not be bringing in Paths... Mage is more versatile than Kira since it can be brought in to a variety of MUs.

I disagree here. Kira does the same as the mage simply better if you face spot removal.

If you land Mage naming Loam and hold one counter for their DD, you win. I really don't know what recent Loam lists are looking like since they are so varied. Against the one you played, the only thing that would stop that plan from working are 1 Pulse and 2 EE.

And S.Assault. But maybe you're right, shutting down loam should slow them down enought to develop a good board position against them. However the game is far away from being over. They can get rid of the mage with many maindeck weapons.

Okay, nvm. You don't understand what I was asking.

Missed that one again ? Lets try it once more, what was your question again

Well, basically I don't think you can cut Cliques. I would rather you cut the Sprites before the Cliques.

Maybe in an aggro heavy meta? They might be to slow against a lot of Burn, Zoo and Goblins?

And one question i'm always asking myself : If you have a sprite in hand and your opponent plays SDT. Do you counter this one? I normally don't, but SDT seems worth it. I don't know. Do you / would you counter SDT this way?

[Black Mass]

Yes, no questions, yes. If you fear removal, they'll find other with the top if you let it in to play. they can assemble the counterbalance soft lock an others. Therefore: if I'd ever get to heve the the chance to counter a top with a sprite, I'd defenitly do it.