If you're looking for a SB against Control I hear Price of Progress is pretty good. They rarely ever expect it either.
"We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."
What do you guys side in against Zoo? Iīm in Rb.
Went on a champ, and only won the games I play againsīt Zoo trough mana denial (Waste+3ports).
I was going to test Perish, but it seemed rather situational, and I think that I wont use it, expecially after playing yesterday.
Do you think Cabal Therapy is a good option, conbined with wastes?
Dystopia?
Deathmark?
Terminate? (just kidding here)
I think dropping big dudes (Boartusk Liege or higher) is a very good way, but what goblin would be fast and fat enough?
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
I like Pyrokinesis a lot. Takes care of Lavamancer and their early beats, and is also huge vs. any tribal deck. It prevents them to do serious damage in the early game, so you'll have a chance to stabilize.
Still, not an easy matchup by any means.
Knesis is nice and all, but if you canīt find Waste for Taigas, it is not so good.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
It can still often completely stymie their early offense, making killing you notably more difficult. Even killing just 1 creature is good.Originally Posted by ScatmanX
And note that they will never see the kinesis coming after they slyly fallout away your guys.
pryokinesis is amazing if you play in a zoo/aggro meta. I have been running 4 in my board and loving every one I see.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
Against Zoo, I bring in +1 Goblin King, +2 Glacial Crevasses and +2 Pyrokinesis. My initial strategy is to "fog" their big attack phases and to race via Mountainwalk and being able to remove their efficient drops. That's if they play red.
It entirely depends on build, however, as they can just burn out my King and then my strategy is "hope I can get guys through." If they sideboard Pyroclasm, I am in a lot of trouble. I actually really dislike the match-up. I hate having to Stingscourger away a Tarmogoyf for a turn because Pyrokinesis is never quite big enough. I have found that I end up looking for Goblin Sharpshooter earlier in this match-up. A lot of times it makes Pyrokinesis insane.
A discussion question, if you will: Looking at the Charlotte 5K results, Rw Goblins grabbed 1/4 of the Top 8 appearances. How significant are these results, and does that version of the deck have better game in the matchups that look to be more common coming out of that event, particularly Zoo?
Summoning Trap 4GG
Instant - Trap
If a creature you cast this turn was
countered by a spell or ability an opponent
controlled, you may pay 0 rather then pay
Summoning Trap's casting cost.
Look at the top 7 cards of your library.
You may put a creature card from among
them onto the battlefield. Put the rest on
the bottom of your library in any order.
Could this have a place in Goblin sideboards ? I'd think that Lackeys or Instigators would get countered on turn one or two rather often, and using that to fetch out an early Warchief/Ringleader/Chieftain/Siege-Gang sounds like a pretty nice tempo boost. And it's still not bad if you use it on turn three or four when they counter your Warchief or Ringleader...
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
Meh. Isn't it a tad situational? Not only do you need to draw it in your opening hand to be effective, but also it's contingent upon them countering. I'd rather run Pyros and blasts as they are good against more targets. Also, with the addition of Instigator, there is a good chance to force through either a Lackey, Instigator or Vial as a second if a first one is countered.
Bottom line is too situational and not good enough to replace any current SB slots. That's just my scrubby n00b's opinion though.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
That does have the advantage of allowing the Goblin player to tap out and still have a good response to a counterspell, but it's a very narrow "answer." On the one hand, it's possible to turn any countered creature into something far more dangerous. Countered Lackey turning into Ringleader, Siege-Gang, Chieftain? That's pretty good. On the other hand, it sits dead in your hand if there's no counter, it can possibly nab you little of consequence (Stingscourger and Gempalm Incinerator are unimpressive) and it does nothing to aid you in playing Æther Vial, an obviously powerful tool against decks with countermagic. Pyroblast and/or REB are significantly more effective options against blue, generally speaking.
I have finally settled a list with Warren Instigator in it.
Here it is, with the explanation of each (non-obvious) card choice.
Manabase:
4 AEther Vial
4 Wasteland
18 Mountain: The deck plays with a lot of RR cards that you want to cast early in the game, so you want to maximize the red sources. I'm playing only 22 because between the higher number of basics, a good number of tempo tools, and 4 added lackeys, the deck should need a little less lands to work properly.
Goblins
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief: I don't think Chieftain is a substitute for Warchief. Haste enablers are good with 8 lackeys to surprise strikes, and with only 22 lands the deck wants to pack all the manacheating it can afford.
4 Warren Instigator: It's absolutely amazing, and probably the card that made me re-think some concepts about the deck. A 4of is needed here.
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Stingscourger: 6 slots for removal are usually a good number. Without Mogg War Marshall, however, Gempalm Incinerator has lost part of its appeal, being less effective early in the game. With 8 lackeys you also want to remove a possible blocker, even for a turn, to have a savage tempo swing. That's why I upped the Stingscourger count and diminished the Gempalm number.
1 Siege-Gang Commander: with less lands you want to lower the curve, and the matches where I get to play 2 SGC are really rare. It's obviously awesome to drop with a lackey, but with WI you can tutor for him with a Matron and still drop it the same turn.
4 Goblin Chieftain: this is the card that needs the most explanations. What are the things this guy can do for you?
- An haste man is really good with lackeys, for surprise attacks out of nowhere.
- It fights opponent's plague, pyroclasms, bolts, etc.
- It makes Instigator an attacking monster that beats for 4 and, quite often, exchanges with goyfs.
- It's a good card to drop with lackeys, unlike other low CC dudes.
- It's amazing when you can drop it out of Warren Instigator first strike damage, cause it instantly pump all your dudes, beating for a few damage more, and screwing combat math.
- It can screw combat math with an active vial too.
- the +1/+1 ability is very similar to Piledriver's ability when it comes to deal a good amount of damage to the opponent: let's look at this:
Piledriver + Warchief = 5 dmg
Piledriver + Ringleader + Matron = 8 dmg
Piledriver + Warren Instigator = 5 dmg
Piledriver + Matron + Warren Instigator = 8 dmg
Chieftain + Warchief = 5 dmg
Chieftain + Ringleader + Matron = 7 dmg
Chieftain + Warren Instigator = 6 dmg
Chieftain + Matron + Warren Instigator = 8 dmg
As you can see, both cards usually deal a similar amount of damage. Obviously, this doesn't take into account that Chieftain costs one more, doesn't consider cases when you have 4+ goblins on board (when you have such a strong position you're probably going to win anyway, doesn't matter if you have 13 or 15 damages on board).
The examples also don't cover the fact that Piledriver might not have haste, and that chieftain grants haste to the other guys you're possibly dropping this turn.
1 Goblin Piledriver: With the addition of WI, the deck already has a good number of 2cc drops, and Chieftain does a job that's really similar to Piledriver's. As one of is still good, for going matron -> piledriver, attack with a horde, when you might not have the mana to go for Chieftain, or you need to maximize damage with 4+ goblins on board.
2 customizable slots that can be:
For the conservative ones: additional Piledrivers: It's still one of the best 2cc drops, and in conjunction with Chieftain, really makes the deck much more aggressive, if this is your needs.
Siege Gang Commander #2: I don't think it's needed, but it fits well.
For the ones who like experiments: Lightning Crafter: a card that needs to get re-evaluated post Zendikar. It's both additional removal (and you like it with all those Lackeys), and a good lackey drop too (somewhat working as matron/ringleader #9). In testing when WI connect and you have a matron in hand you can go for different approaches: matron for SGC, if you want a quick win, for Ringleader if you have few cards in hand, for Crafter if you fear board sweepers. If they kill him, you'll still have a Matron in play and a free demonic tutor. It survives Pyroclasm and plague all day, and it's golden against planeswalkers, Moats, Ghostly Prisons, Magus of the Tabernacle, ground stalls. It's also often gg against other tribal decks.
Sparksmith: it's both a removal (good with lackeys), a 2 drop for your curve, and a small beater. It's quite good against other tribal decks, and in the late game it kills even goyfs, if you're willing to drop some blood.
Final list:
// Lands
18 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures
1 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
2 between Piledriver, Siege Gang Commander, Mogg War Marshall, Sparksmith, Lightning Crafter, Incinerator, Stingscourger
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
Last edited by GreenOne; 10-04-2009 at 09:12 AM.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
GreenOne, I strongly recommend you give Kiki-Jiki the second Siege-Gang slot. In testing with WI this has easily been my strongest play. Being able to matron up Kiki, then play him is phenomenal. And at worst you can just copy matron to find the SGC. It provides a very strong board presence, and leaves you with plenty of options. Plus he still provides you with the same turn 3 wins Siege-Gang can.
I didn't think about Kiki-Jiki. Like Crafter, it might be a card to re-evaluate and test again with WI in the deck. The RRR in the casting cost should not be a problem anymore, with the new manabase.
I was liking the versatility (and lower cc, if I drew it) of Crafter though.
What about the rest of the deck? I see (on salvation) that you're about to drop vial. Be careful, Vial is a great tempo boost, and a card that, for a single colorless mana, usually (statistically speaking) gives you 5+ mana. The combat tricks with Chieftain/SGC/Crafter and the uncounterability are just nice bonus, but indeed Goblin is a deck that wants a lot of mana to work.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Instigator--> Matron--> Kiki--> Token Matron--> Any number of nasty things!
Kiki allows you to get an extra goblin on the table, not to mention that they have to deal with 2 instigators next turn, and you can repeat the process somewhat if you searched for a matron with your Token Matron. Or you can search for a Chieftain and copy him, giving you a huge boost.
Like Eseph said, it gives you more options. Still, if you can pull off the Matron into Crafter/Ringleader you are probably WAY ahead anyway!
I actually like the list, though I think your 3 spot has become overly crowded, 4 Chieftain, 4 Warchief might be just a bit too much. I also agree with 22 lands, that's more or less the number I'm looking to reach through my builds. I've never really been sold on crafter by itself. It is another larger body (survives 2 damage sweepers), and provides extra burn (works well with chieftain), but the opportunities to hide something useful tend to be minimal, and often you might find yourself simply upgrading an already somewhat useful goblin, into another somewhat useful goblin.
I think generally we're aiming for a similar build, but we're starting at the extremes to see what's still around when we get there. And to be fair, I dropped Vial well over a year ago in favour of Food Chain.
And to the above comment: I think you meant to say 3 Instigators (assuming you didn't feel the need to copy matron).
I really donīt understand why they do better. I tend to think that is because there were a lot more Rw than Rb(g), so they got statistic on theyīre favor.
I mean, most list splash just for 3 or 4 Stp or PtE. Some Rb lists splash just for Warren Weirdings. It costs 1 more, but is often tutorable, revealed or recurred.
I really donīt get it.
@GreenOne: I liked your list. Kiki does make sense, give it a try.
Iīm so ansious to get some Instigators!
@Summoning Trap 4GG: It can sure be great, but in my opinion wonīt see play. The deal is that you are preety good againsīt blue decks already (just tempo thresh not being favorable imo), so the card just wont help you in bad muīs. (TECH: it can be good against stompy decks, with Chalice of the Void!!! =p )
In the report session is a champ weīre iīve been in this weekend. Comments are welcomed! =)
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
I've been playing Kiki-Jiki forever. My list, posted some twenty pages ago, included it. There's also been talk of it before. So if people "forgot" or "didn't think about it" then they're just not reading the thread.
The more changes people make, the closer they just get to my list.
I might drop Vial completely if I pick up Warren Instigators. I know, I know tempo, mana, 1 drop... Whatever. If you don't cast Vial turn 1 or 2 it pretty much sucks. True story.
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