[Deck] Zoo

[hungryLIKEALION]

At hungryLIKEALION : Lightning Helix is great in the mirror, but in general, its fairly weak, You would would rather have a 1cc removal spell against most matchups. And dont run swords in the main, it runs quite contrary to your overall strategy.

Understand that teeg and 1 cannonist are much much less than what would be needed to effectively combo counter . You are much better off solidifying your CB matchup then devote slots to something that will beat you anway. I would also concur that Clasm is not necessary, even to beat goblins. You simply have too much removal for them, and every creature you play is bigger. The one matchup that can effectively be shored up without loosing too much would be GY based decks. Somethink like this might be worth a try:

3 Grip
2 REB
2 STP (4 path main)
2 Shusher
1 PoP (assuming 2 main)
1 Jitte (one main)
4 Crypt


Even when that new trap comes out I still wouldn't play it. Reanimator doesnt really put more than one or 2 cards in the gy at once, so for the most part the trap is limited to ichorid.

Please don't talk to me like I'm a scrub. I've been playing this deck for a long time, and my card choices are all made for a reason.

Lightning Helix is extremely powerful. When they print another 1cc 3dmg instant, I'll consider cutting helix, until then, I'll keep my 12 instant speed removal spells. To me, being an instant is that important. In addition, helix has trememdous synergy with Sylvan Library, which I like to draw with very aggressively. The only spell that would replace Helix is obviously chain lightning, but if I was going to run Chain Lightning I'd run it in addition to Helix and play 12 burns/16 removals.

As for swords vs path, we've had this argument in this thread 8 million times and it really doesn't need to be had again. In my previous tournament, as detailed here I made the judgment call to run Swords over Path, which is what I normally run, based on the metagame I saw before the tournament, which consisted largely of goblins and elves. I did not want to give people a land for their goblin lackeys or priests of titania, so I played swords instead. And it was very good, even against goyf decks. This weekend I spent saturday night at my girlfriend's house and didn't go home before the tournament, so I just brought the deck as it was configured for the previous tournament, meaning swords still over path. Once again, it was fine all day. Not as good as it was last month, and I probably would have switched back to path this tournament if I had the chance, but it was not a substantial difference either way. I've played plenty of games with this deck with both W removal spells, and they each have their place, depending on the given metagame.

Gaddock Teeg is not there to battle combo, he is there to battle Engineered Explosives and other bomby control cards that people play in my meta. The canonist is there because I can also bring in teeg for combo but I don't want to bring in four teegs since he's legendary. You're right in that 4 cards will not magically make the combo matchup good, but you're wrong about Teeg not having his uses.

Once again, please don't talk to me like I'm a scrub who doesn't know what he's doing. I know why I put the cards I did in my deck, and they're all there for very good reasons.

Edit//And as for solidifying the CB matchup, I'm 11-2 against CB this year in tournaments. I solidify that matchup by playing well, not by bringing in 10 cards. If you don't play like a retard, CB is a very easy matchup.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Please don't talk to me like I'm a scrub. I've been playing this deck for a long time, and my card choices are all made for a reason.

You're starting to act like yours truly. Haha.

@Everyone else: STP seems like a fine addition to the sideboard. I've never fucking thought of it before, and idk why because I've advocated both cards. Meh. I personally just sacrifice the combo matchup all together, your answers are too slow, and they can still Chant you on your turn 2 anyway, so i don't see the point wasting board slots. I just hope to get well aimed Lightning Helix and burn pretty much. I'm also thinking about cutting Needle from my board as well, but it helps against so much shit.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I've gotta admit, I'm pretty disappointed that we didn't really get any new playable cards from Zendikar. I guess I shouldn't complain too much after we got Wild Nacatl, Wooly Thoctar, Knight of the Reliquary, and Qasali Pridemage over the last year, but still. Would be nice to get something. :(

[Valtrix]

Arid Mesa. I win :P But yeah, it is unfortunate, though we got so much in the last year to make this a DTB, so I really can't complain either.

[Roelke]

I've gotta admit, I'm pretty disappointed that we didn't really get any new playable cards from Zendikar. I guess I shouldn't complain too much after we got Wild Nacatl, Wooly Thoctar, Knight of the Reliquary, and Qasali Pridemage over the last year, but still. Would be nice to get something. :(

You forget to mention path to exile.


During testing I found the ichorid match-up quite problematic, specially postboard ancestor's chosen are a real pain. The dredgedeck sees some more play these day (paired against it twice and usually makes up 10-15% of the metagame). I'm not into adding dedicated hatecards jet. But some general advice would be awesome.

My current list is fairly standard, with KOTR, lighting helix and without Jitte. I prefer the helix because the extra life swing is sweet against other agro decks. My sideboard is:
- 3 gaddock teeg
- 3 krosan grips
- 2 pithing needle
- 3 volcanic fallout
- 1 path to exile (3 main and the 4th copy might move main as well)
- 3 free slots (which will become 2 swords, 1 needle OR 3 reb's)

My current sideboard strategy against ichorid is:
-3 pridemage
-2 fireblast
-2 price of progress

+3 gaddock
+3 fallout
+1 path to exile

[hungryLIKEALION]

Yeah, Ichorid is not a good matchup. I used to play Mogg Fanatic before the M10 rules instead of Kird Ape, so I never really had a problem with it then, but now it's a lot rougher without him. I'm still trying to figure out what to do about it, but I believe it's correct to bring in some mixture of REBs and Gaddock Teegs if you've got 'em. Just try to leave mana open to burn your own guys or lavamancer suicide, whenever they're about to get a big stack of zombies. ;\

Edit//Obligatory bragging for getting the 1337th post.

[Roelke]

I used to side in REB but they were quite unimpressive, since ichorid only has breakthrough as the usually board out deep analyses.

Gaddock is quite useful against them by denying access to dread return (and sometimes breakthrough as well). My biggest problem is the big live swing they get with the chosen: usually gaining 30 or more life and having a nasty creature in play. After the chose i just get beaten down by small armies of zombies and horror's.

An other card that get's boarded in against zoo is tireless tribe; this guys is quite annoying against most of the zoo guys as well. And then I forgot to mention firestorm. If you take Parcher's sideboarding as an example:

Goyf Sligh/Zoo: G2: -2 DA, -4 LED, -3 Unmask, -1 Hypno
+1 Chosen, +3 Grudge, +2 Tribe, +3 Firestorm, +1 City (if Burn, switch Unmasks for Firestorms)

G3: -1 DA, -1 Ichorid
+1 Unmask, +1 Chosen

So you see; dredge has some powerful cards to bring in against zoo. Which makes the match even harder.

[hungryLIKEALION]

To be honest this weekend was the first time I played the matchup for months. I sided out 2 KoTRs, 2 Libraries, 2 Jittes and 2 Pridemages for 4 Needles, 3 Teegs, and 1 Canonist. Teeg was great, but not enough to prevent me from getting stomped anyway. I think without some dedicated anti-dredge cards, the matchup is pretty close to unwinnable.

[Jayzonious]

[Skeggi]

I sided out 2 KoTRs, 2 Libraries, 2 Jittes and 2 Pridemages for 4 Needles, 3 Teegs, and 1 Canonist.

Canonist is of absolutely no use. A Pridemage can at least be sacrificed to kill your own Needle to remove Bridges if needed.

And any match-up against Ichorid is always winnable, because Ichorid tends to blow up into its owner's face every once in a while. Funny stuff .

[hungryLIKEALION]

Canonist is of absolutely no use. A Pridemage can at least be sacrificed to kill your own Needle to remove Bridges if needed.

And any match-up against Ichorid is always winnable, because Ichorid tends to blow up into its owner's face every once in a while. Funny stuff .

Why is Canonist of no use? They can't combo out with it on the field. ;\

[Goblin Snowman]

Why is Canonist of no use? They can't combo out with it on the field. ;\

By combo out, do you mean play a single Dread Return and kill you? They can easily operate with only one spell per turn. It might slightly annoy them when they want to use multiple therapies in one turn, but that's about all I can see it doing.

[Citrus-God]

By combo out, do you mean play a single Dread Return and kill you? They can easily operate with only one spell per turn. It might slightly annoy them when they want to use multiple therapies in one turn, but that's about all I can see it doing.

Also doesnt stop Ichorid from coming into play and leaving play [and zombie tokens come into play].

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I can only say I've played against any Ichorid build in a tournament setting 3 times, and I've never won the round. I've won a game, then just got punted, with Teeg and Jitte active >.<

I hate that deck, it's not playing magic in my opinion.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Well, I know when I played against the deck last weekend, he was playing like 8 spells per turn, and having canonist down would have been pretty sweet I think. Even if it wouldn't have been GREAT, it would have at least been decent.

[RogueMTG]

Well, I know when I played against the deck last weekend, he was playing like 8 spells per turn, and having canonist down would have been pretty sweet I think. Even if it wouldn't have been GREAT, it would have at least been decent.

I really haven't been able to think up a turn where Ichorid would ever play more than 3 or 4 spells (normally they might play 1 or none), even with a god hand. Even then it usually involves LED... so Cannonist could MAYBE (probably not) slow them down 1 turn?

Either you're crazy exaggerating or you are counting things like Bridge & Narcomeba triggers as spells or you were playing against a different deck...

[CorpT]

I really haven't been able to think up a turn where Ichorid would ever play more than 3 or 4 spells (normally they might play 1 or none), even with a god hand. Even then it usually involves LED... so Cannonist could MAYBE (probably not) slow them down 1 turn?

Either you're crazy exaggerating or you are counting things like Bridge & Narcomeba triggers as spells or you were playing against a different deck...

I died to a Double Cabal (3 spells cast), Dread Return for Eternal Witness, Breakthrough for 0, Dread Return Zealot the other day. That's 6 spells. Not that Canonist is good, but that was 6 spells in one turn.

[RogueMTG]

I died to a Double Cabal (3 spells cast), Dread Return for Eternal Witness, Breakthrough for 0, Dread Return Zealot the other day. That's 6 spells. Not that Canonist is good, but that was 6 spells in one turn.

That's pretty cool. (Not for you, but in general.)

[hungryLIKEALION]

I died to a Double Cabal (3 spells cast), Dread Return for Eternal Witness, Breakthrough for 0, Dread Return Zealot the other day. That's 6 spells. Not that Canonist is good, but that was 6 spells in one turn.

Three of the four games I plalyed against the guy went like that, except with deep analyses too.

I'm not saying Canonist would be the card I want to side in against dredge, but it's on my sb and I figured it would be better than a qasali pridemage. Even if it just buys one turn, it's possible I could remove a few bridges or something. Either way, it's like fighting a rhino and I have a choice between a butter knife and a letter opener. Neither one is actually gonna kill the rhino, but you pick the one you think gives you the best chance. Next time I'll pack an AK-47 (Tormod's Crypt).

[TotallySweet]

I have extensive playtesting experience against ichorid, since my roommate plays the deck and we often just play all the time, both sideboarded and not. I tend to win matches 60/40 but they are long, involved games.

They do, indeed, tend to play multiple spells a turn, particularly, as some have mentioned, Cabal Therapy. Often, as well, they'll dread return eternal witness or cephalid sage, both of which imply a continuation of spells played.

That being said, cannonist isn't something I would side in for two reasons; there are better cards to side in, and it goes both ways, preventing you from playing more than one spell a turn as well (this isn't too terribly game-breaking, but it can certainly affect things unfavorably for you (no bolt+fireblast for the last 7 life, for instance).

I'll try to impart some wisdom I've found as far as sideboarding vs Ichorid is concerned if it can help people. First and foremost, no matter what you do, Ichorid can just up and win on turn 1 or 2 on the play if they are lucky, and this is just something that happens. Luck of the draw, say what you will, but it's something to keep in mind and don't get too frustrated! This is similar to ANT/TES, etc and the reason why many choose to ignore the matchup for SB purposes entirely, and depending on your meta that might be prudent.

*Keep those Pridemages in! They will board in needles and sometimes you can snatch their LED away from them at the perfect moment.
*If you do the stp in sb thing, side those baby's in! Ichorid is the main target here, on the upkeep. Also useful in a pinch to remove/kill the 3rd creature on the draw step after a narco. Keeping them off 3 creatures is integral!
*Tormod's crypt goes in and knowing when to use it is quite important. Many people use Relic now (not so much zoo since it hurts you too), but it's not as good as crypt vs ichorid since your mana is so very important during the first few turns. Keeping a mana open for the upkeep path or whatever what have you is crucial while also having a clock.
*Teeg is solid and he must be bounced, so this sometimes forces them to go into topdeck mode looking for a chain of vapor. Slow rolling with ichorids isn't so great vs Zoo due to pte and the like unless you are drawing like ass.

Notes:
Keep them off three creatures is the name of the game. Burn your own dudes or pop a crypt/relic when they get a bridge. Exile ichorids at almost every chance! Always be very aware of the contents of their graveyard. Cabal Therapy and Bridge means dread return is just around the corner. They will certainly DR an Ancestor's Chosen even if they don't have bridges or tokens just to halve your clock. Playing against Ichorid is an exciting and interactive matchup and I really enjoy it over other combo decks because aside from the 'oops I win, hurr' moments on turn 1 or 2, you actually get to play the game instead of watching a ANT or TES player play with himself for a few minutes before saying, "Good game, your taiga -> nacatl was a good play, but I guess I just won the game right after that haha, loser."

EDIT: way to go, Volt, you say my whole post in 2 lines T_T