I've had pretty good success against Ichorid. I just side in 3 or 4 Crypts and play carefully. Get 1 or 2 threats on the board, then always keep some mana open for Path or burn. You have to be prepared to burn your own dudes during your opponent's draw step to get rid of Bridges, if need be.
EDIT: ninja'd
EDIT 2: Forgot to mention, 'clasms are good to SB in against Ichorid, too.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
Since im still playing 5C, im siding Yixlid Jailer
So maybe the guy I played against just got really lucky, but every game he would cast 2+ Cabal Therapies by turn 2 and take out all the removal I had in hand. It seemed like the only chance I had to win was to topdeck into removal, which is why I sided in the canonist, cuz in theory he would be able to stall a turn or two before I get comboed out and it would give me an extra draw to hit some removal. That's the theory I was going by.
But like I said, butter knives to AK 47. I'm bringing back the crypts.
Do you actually use any blue cards?? I'm a little curious what your list looks like...Originally Posted by Humphrey
Since im still playing 5C, im siding Yixlid Jailer
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Yay 5 color. I'm actually going back to five color, because I miss my confidants oh so dearly. That, and I finally finished my playset so I have even more incentive to use them.Since im still playing 5C, im siding Yixlid Jailer
Random thing I was wondering about using in the 5 color builds was a 1x Volrath's Stronghold (In addition to other lands, and with 2x Knight of the Reliquary) Very minorly it helps reach the CMCs of things with colorless(I'm looking at you grip). However, most importantly it seems like its recursion could win us the game against anything unequipped to deal with it. It's kind of strange, but I think it could have some merit. People already run three drops, and while the land is not as aggressive it can go the distance. I think since in 5c we already are planning for a "longer" game, so how "slow" the land is is probably not that much of an issue. Just a thought.
EDIT: On blue cards, in my build I have blue mostly for tribal flames, but I also am trying 3 mind harnesses in the board. No testing yet, but the card seems really good for us.
Last edited by Valtrix; 09-25-2009 at 08:45 PM. Reason: Slight clarity
How does a colorless producing land make grip easier to cast?
Other than that, I do agree with most of what you've said.
It's the whole getting to 3 mana consistently. Sometimes I have grip without enough mana to play it.
Ohh, I see. You mean that you have the normal amount of land PLUS stronghold, and in that way, in that you have extra land in the deck, it's easier to cast Grip. We were confused since it's just as wasteable as your duals, adds colorless, and taps for one so it was hard to see in what way it helped cast a 3-mana green spell above what having any other land in the deck in play would.
It's really not the main point in all, in fact it's such a small point that I debating about even mentioning it in my original post. I just like to consider as much as possible when considering something.
I know that MWS is not very accurate with it's draw engine and you are going to be playing some exotic builds, but I don't get to tournaments often, so it's all i got. I've looked at my SB lately:
1 jitte (1 main)
3 PoP
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Choke
3 Grip
2 ReB
2 StP
Is landstill the threat it used to be? I guess that's why I run the REB, Shusher, choke, and PoP.
Ichorid has been problematic for me. I have played against and beat it in tournament play, but that was before the dread return tech was added. I'm thinking the Stp and the 2nd jitte here.
Mirror is going to be popular with the deck taking off the way it has. I'd say -2 fireblast +2 stp here maybe fit in the jitte #2.
Merfolk is a neat deck. I like to choke it, add REB too.
Countertop (booo). Choke, shusher, and stp.
Am i off base with my thoughts here and am I covering enough builds with my Sb. In the testing I have done, the list looks rounded.
How many people are side boring Price of Progress, and what decks are you seeing more of that make you take it out of the main?
Also, what do you need to see in an opening hand to make it worth keeping?
I switch it between side and main depending on the meta. If there's a lot of landstill or counter top I'll play it main, if it's a lot of merfolk and goblins I'll put it in the side.
A good opening hand is defined by what matchup you're playing against. I'll go ahead and come up with some examples, say what I'd do with them, and then analyze which match ups it is appropriate to keep it for. I'll draw them all from my deck for authenticity.
Hand 1:
Grim Lavamancer
Tarmogoyf
Figure of Destiny
Knight of the Reliquary
Fireblast
Windswept Heath
Savannah
General Verdict:Keep
This is a somewhat sketchy hand, but I'd feel comfortable playing it against most decks in the format. If you don't know what they're playing, you might be a little weary about wasteland, but you do have two one drops and a good chance to draw a third land. You'll need to draw a third land to cast the Fireblast in the hand, but in a deck with 21 lands that's usually not a huge issue.
DTBs I'd keep this hand against;
Landstill
Mirror
Countertop
DTBs I'd consider this hand against;
Goblins
Merfolk
Tempo Thresh
DTBs I'd mull this hand against;
ANT
Hand 2:
Sylvan Library
Knight of the Reliquary
Windswept Heath
Windswept Heath
Qasali Pridemage
Fireblast
Taiga
General Verdict:Mull
This hand is going to be far too slow against pretty much any deck in the format. I'm tempted to say keep for the mirror match since you have both library and knight to overpower them with, but really, if they play a one and two drop your qasali pridemage is gonna be way too slow to hold down the fort. I'd mull this against anything.
Hand 3:
Tarmogoyf
Figure of Destiny
Lightning Helix
Price of Progress
Taiga
Wooded Foothills
Plains
This is a pretty good hand. It's got a one drop that you can play off a basic, a green dual to play tarmogoyf off of through stifle on turn 2, and two good burn spells, with a third land to protect from wasteland. I'd keep this hand versus everything. Even game 1 against ANT, you can't ask for too much better without being really greedy.
Hand 4:
Qasali Pridemage
Path to Exile
Qasali Pridemage
Tarmogoyf
Kird Ape
Horizon Canopy
Taiga
General Verdict:Keep
This is a very good hand. You can make a turn one ape, turn two pridemage, turn three pridemage, and have a tarmogoyf to follow up with after you get your exalted beats on. You also have a path for their first goyf to ensure you can beat unimpeded. With a little luck you'll draw into burn, and you can cash your canopy in for another card if you hit more lands. Once again, I'd keep this against any deck in the DTB.
Hand 5:
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Bolt
Taiga
Wild Nacatl
Wild Nacatl
Fireblast
Plateau
General Verdict:Keep
This hand is beautiful. Aside from being a self contained third turn kill if they deal any damage to themselves, this hand is fast, has removal, and is brutally efficient. Assuming you draw ANY gas off the top, you should be able to win this game. Once again, keep against everybody.
So yeah, that's a pretty general overview. For me, the most important things to consider when determining whether or not you can keep a hand looks like this;
Wild Nacatls
Tarmogoyfs
Burn
Other one and two drops
Lands
Swords effects
The more nacatls and goyfs you have, the more likely you tend to be to win. If you don't have any nacatls or goyfs, you should have multiple other ones and two drops. If you don't have any one drops, the hand should at least have a 1cc removal spell and at least one tarmogoyf to consider keeping it. When playing against combo, you shift the list to 1 drops being the most important, followed by burn. If 4 cards of the hand do not contribute to a turn 3/4 kill (I.E. Lands, Library, KoTRs, Swords/Path) you mull it.
I hope this helps. :)
I think price started to fall out of the main as I needed more and more red, forcing me to pull more of my duals out through fetches. Then when I go to cast a PoP I was stinging myself for the same if not more than my opponent. It was getting to the point where I didn't want to see it unless it was with a fireblast.
The arguement could be made I'm sure, that Pop is too powerful and the life loss doesn't matter. I submit that the card was becoming situational and would sit in hand for a few turns until it could deal a finishing blow. In that case I would rather have something else that's going to have an immediate impact on the board.
The card is too good not to be played and pairs very well with a shusher and a fireblast. Against landstill, it can single handedly win you the game. That's reason enough for me to have it around.
I moved the Prices to the board once Merfolk and the mirror became major metagame concerns. The card is practically dead weight in both matchups.
Really? Why?
Because if you are losing it wont win you the game. Also, in other matchups you are willing to trade 4-6 of your own life for a bunch of theirs. Against zoo tho, they can burn you out and if they have been beating on you, it doesnt hit creatures.
Question:
What cards in a Goblin deck do Zoo hate to see sided?
Pyroknesis? Perish? Relic of Progenitus? Other?
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Pyrokinesis is the best card they have against us, but it's usually only a 1 for 2 for the goblins player and it's pretty easy to shurg off. Perish might be a little better if you're running the black splash, but it's not that hard to play around since the deck has multiple non-green creatures it can play to avoid over extension.
Relic's usually not more than a minor annoyance. They shrink goyf once, then you crack a fetch and bolt a goblin and it's back to 3/4.
I know this has been brought up and has been dismissed before, but seeing that a lot of people are talking about Steppe Lynx as being awesome in extended Zoo I was wondering if anyone has been testing it in Legacy. Particularly in builds running 12+fetches it seems like it might be better than Kird Ape (whom it seems most people consider marginal and rightfully so) since it can bang for 4 a turn in the first few turns but becomes totally dead in the mid to lategame. Overall the Lynx seems more suited to extremely aggresive strategies and most lists around here tend to be geared more and more towards the midgame...
The fact is that you're assuming that you're going to have extra fetchlands to use,and that it's going to actually matter. Even though you're playing 9+ fetchlands, you're probably not going to get more than two in a hand. Thus, only in that scenario lynx is any sort of good, but in almost every case he just sucks. I did the math before, and on average he's still worse than Isamaru, and Isamaru sucks. Plus, he hurts your aggro matchup.
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