Lets forget about Cosi's Trickster...
Ive been experimenting with Counter-Top based merfolk. This Version is more of a hybrid version. It can be the conventional merfolk that we're used to see for aggro matchups. Counter-Top is there to battle combo decks or decks with small curves. Heres the deck:
12 Island
4 Wasteland (could be Rishadan Port since the meta runs little non-basic)
3 Mutavault (could be Rishadan Port since i dont own these bad boys)
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Silvergill Adept
3 Merfolk Sovereign
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 AEther Vial
3 Standstill
Sideboard:
3 Stifle
3 Hydroblast
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Counterbalance
1 Daze
1 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Standstill
3 (open slots)
I wanted to try Lullmage Mentor but its pretty tight. It is nice that its at 3CC. It extends this deck's countertop reach to 3CC. But then again, this deck should be fine with 10x 3CC.
Cold-Eyed Selkie is there as a Top 'reset'. It also provides good card advantage (given that if it connects). I am also thinking of running Wake Thrasher in this spot since we already have Standstills as Top resetters. Maybe I could run Lullmage Mentor in this spot. Time will tell.
I am also thinking of running a couple of fetchlands as a Top reset. Good or bad idea?
So far, this deck is like driving along the downtown highway. Sometimes its fast (beatdown merfolk lords style + standstill), sometimes its slow (countertop + slowly building your army style). Playwise, you have to know which way you are going to so you dont get screwed. You definitely need to know your mulligans.
I built this deck to battle decks that are faster than the conventional Merfolks (combo, elves and the like) and because sometimes, little disruption isnt enough. My meta is also unpredictable with new people, new and veterans, showing up.
Any good comments that would help the deck?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forumsOriginally Posted by Kyle
No offence, but 3/3 cb/top split is horrible, even more so in a deck without ponder and brainstorm.
Merfolk is a tribal themed deck that thrives on tempo. Ditch the CounterTop engine.
Don't you think there's a reason why CounterTop decks play stuff like Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant? It's because they have power or a good ability: the cards are very good all by themselves. Merfolk only works if you have alot of them. So you must take the opportunity to run 4 Standstills. Besides that, you want to tap out and play as many Merfolk as possible (so you need 4 Daze), so you have no time to assemble CounterTop before turn 4 or even 5. And then it's too late to be effective. Cutting a land for something as mana-intensive as CounterTop is risky too. Especially if 4 of those lands are Wastelands... oh, but you want to run Rishadan Ports? They are even more mana-intensive. I appreciate the effort, and tried it myself. For about 3 minutes. Then I came to the conclusion it wouldn't work.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
I agree with the two people above me; the Counter-Top thing is really not likely to work out for you in a Merfolk shell.
Beyond that though, time won't tell, because I'll tell you right now: run Wake Thrashers above Selkie or Lullmage Mentor (are you freakin' serious?) all day, every day. Thrasher is a house, whereas the two other guys are basically crap.
I really think testing will show you that there are way better uses for the 6 slots you're trying to use for Counter-Top though, especially with no way to assemble the combo and with a deck that wants you to tap out and apply pressure.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Actually, Wake Thrasher is a very large undercosted beatstick. I don't know where that expression 'it's a house' comes from. Wouldn't it be odd that you point out an average card in a deck and say 'that card is an appartment'. Cards that are not so good: 'that card is a gazebo'.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
For me right now merfs is on a plateau stage, zen didn't offer something worth testing, and after several months well see how merfs will fair with the current legacy card changes.
As for the counterbalance in a merfs shell...., i don't like aswell i have the same reasons as the above posters.
Oh, you silly Europeans and your skateboards and your drugs.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Don't forget our wooden shoes, tullips, cheese and prostitutes!.Oh, you silly Europeans and your skateboards and your drugs.
But the tresher is the shit in merfolk, never ever cut him or you'll cut yourself.
If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it.” —Volrath
Founding father of Team Moosebite, the team that really bites.
Not to go over the same ground again but I haven't been playing Wake Thrasher for months, and I haven't missed him.
I'll agree with Nightmare. I don't think Thrasher is required. However, I also don't think he's bad. Ideally, I'd love to play Thrasher, Reejery, Sovereign, all in the same deck, but that really kills your curve and doesn't give you any room for removal. The only split I'd look at there is 2 Thrasher, 2 Sovereign, 4 Reejery. That could work well, as some have pointed out. Really, you only need 1 Thrasher...
@Counterbalance: When Lorwyn first came out, I played a CB/Top Merfolk list. It was okayish, but was ultimately outclassed by the current, more tempo-oriented incarnations. When you need to play ~20 creatures, it becomes really hard to fit in CB and have enough control elements to support it. It sure as fuck made Zoo/Sligh an easier matchup though.
Cards on my Wishlist:
Edit - Shit, I mean "Enters the Battlefield." Which still seems hard for a Merfolk to do.
I know it is a wishlist but holy shit and.......meh.
The first one will be unlikely to ever see the light of day.
I remember reading something about MARO commenting on Scion of Oona, and how creating a whole tribe that was untargetable was a mistake (for several reasons. Namely power level and interaction). Granted they also had flash too, but I just can't see them ever making a shroud lord for any of the major tribes (BTW, Elves and Goblins would like a version of the Sustainer!)
The second one........what would you replace if it were to be printed? People are already complaining about the curve and the amount of 3-drops in the deck. What would you do? Drop 6 maindeck slots and add 2 islands?
Nice mock-ups though. Where did you get the artwork?
The Elves already have one, and they don't even play it!
Crystaline Sliver is the only one that protects itself too. That's what's needed for these lords to survive.
Anyway, we have Kira, that helps a bit.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
The second one is actually MORE important than the first! The more this deck can play like Goblins, the better it would get against its worst matchups. I'd actually play a Wake Thrasher if I had a Matron. I'd actually play a Selkie, too! I'd likely cut Sovereigns, and I'd be likely to cut some/all of the Standstills.
Pipe dreams, though.
@SKEGGI
You should check the Gather updated text before you throw Eldamari up......His wording has been altered significantly.
Go search for Crystalline Elves in the search engine and you will get a better understanding.
If you are already aware of these alterations, I apologise. If you are, consider the following:
What is needed is the ability/possibility to play 2, or protect the one that is already on the field. That is why Scion of Oona was/is so good for Fae. You can't do that with Eldamari and as such, you are better just playing another busted elf than protect the one that is already on the board.
To clarify, a shroud lord that doesn't grant shroud to itself but is in the colour blue would be better than an Elf or Goblin equivalent because it acts similarly to Kira while retaining the Merfolk extras. You can protect the shroud lord with counterspells and get the same sort of effect.
Last edited by arebennian; 10-01-2009 at 10:28 AM. Reason: Ordered so it is easier to read
This is what im testing:
12 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Lullmage mentor
2 Merfolk Sovereing
4 Vial
3 Standstill
4 Daze
4 Fow
3 Spell Pierce
2 Rushing river // Into the roil // Echoing thruth
Spell pierce + mentor is doing nice tricks for me: vial in mentor then spell pierce your sweeper. For U i got a 2/2 or 3/3 and countered a spell. Risky? yes, wins games? Yes. Lulmage works better even in multiples.
I know Llulmage is bad topdeck when you are losing, but its more punch when you are in good positions even ending games faster then Wake Thrasher. Its easier to remove or block a huge wake thasher than Llulmage and a its tokens.
I think 2 bounce effects are a must, theres always a pesky enchantment/creature you need out of your way. Just not sure which to use, i like river able to bounce 2 permanents but cost its too high, and echoing thruth gets countertoped too much.
Losing stifle hurts but people are adaped to play against it so we need to adapt, also i dont like having dead cards vs some decks. Only decks that spell pierce maybe is dead is goblins and elves, but you are not gonna win that matchups anyway.
Im not sure about Sovereing, it have lost poteintial without trasher so maybe i replace him with more llullmages, trasher or cosi's trickers to low the curve
Pipe dreams, for sure. Still, lets expand upon this for a moment....
For a deck that wins games based on tempo I'm not sure if this would be the best option.
My reasoning is as follows:
*Your a deck that relies on tempo (and mana denial). Matron in Goblins actually causes you to lose an amount of tempo. You are, instead, slowing yourself down for card quality/quantity rather than speed. I think this conflicts with the main reason Merfolk win and steal, so many games.
*You want to run a toolbox. You will note that not all Goblin players play a toolbox anymore. Infact, I would hasten to add that the majority DON'T (play a toolbox). There are really only a few situations where a silverbullet is searched for over a ringleader/SGC. Those don't occur often enough for the inconsistent draws. SB is a different story.
*You want to play more like Goblins for your bad matchups, but Goblins draw engine, even with a merfolk matron and a Cold-eye Selkie (or are you going to play Tidal Courier as well?), won't be as strong as Goblins and won't have as strong a mid-to-late game(?Refute?). As I noted above, I think you would be trading tempo for card quality and consistency; something that I would probably divert Merfolk away from (at least this particular path).
You are far more adept with the deck than I am, and these are all hypotheticals, but how would you play these? Would these be brought in from the sideboard? I think you would be weakening your deck by replacing Lords with these guys MD.
Last edited by arebennian; 10-01-2009 at 10:32 AM. Reason: Few things I missed out......
On the wish-cards: I'm just goofing off. We'd see where the deck goes if they ever get printed. Meanwhile, there's bigger fish to fry (pardon the pun).
I think many of you misunderstand the premise of the deck. A lot of times, I feel like you're trying to do the wrong things with this deck, and it's frustrating to watch. There is a reason the build I run is set up the way it is, and I think (since I don't feel like doing real work right now) I'll take the time to explain.
This deck is not a control deck.
This deck is not an aggro deck.
This deck is an aggro-control deck.
My background in this format has deep roots in UGw thresh. From pretty much day 1, that's where I've been seated. It allows you to throw down cheap, powerful threats, and stave off removal and interruption for them with Counter Magic, in order for them to quickly and efficiently end the game.
In essence, Thresh was the evolved form of fish. You can see this in its one-time name - WTF (worse-than-fish), which ran cards like Wild Mongrel in it's "Tarmogoyf" slot.
Merfolk was always around, but it wasn't until Llorwyn block - the "tribe matters" block, where we saw enough threat density to make the deck viable as a contender in Legacy.
When M10 was released, I quickly gained interest, as the deck found itself the only Tribal deck in Legacy to have three key factors in its favor:
- The deck can now play up to 12 Lords.
This is important, since the main issue the deck has is its vulnerability to sweepers. With cards like Pyroclasm, Volcanic Fallout, Firespout, and Engineered Plague being the traditional forms of hate for tribal, having access to as many lords as possible can bolster your ability to win quickly, turn your utility men into real threats, and protect each other from the common red and black sweepers that are deathblows to most of the other tribal decks.- Merfolk happens to be the only good tribe with a Lord that costs 2 mana.
Having Lord of Atlantis to provide a boost to your men, while sitting lower on the mana curve than any other lord allows for Merfolk to more readily abuse Aether Vial, and at the same time, be less reliant on it than many other decks of this type. The fact that Vial plays so well with so many other cards (Standstill, Reejery, Wasteland, etc.), makes Merfolk the most capable tribe (other than slivers) to really break the card open. At this point, no one is taking Slivers seriously, so for the time being, I'm willing to dismiss them as the "2 mana lord" tribe.- Force of Will
Goblins can't play it. Elves can't play it. Merfolk can. This gives us a leg up in the combo and control matches, as we have the ability to stop our opponent from hitting us where it traditionally hurts - sweepers and winning faster than us. In addition, we utilize Daze in the same fashion. This is why Cursecatcher is so good, and should be considered an irreplaceable slot in the list. I'm going to cover that more.
Cursecatcher cannot be replaced. Cosi's Trickster, Tidal Warrior, etc, simply cannot compete on the same level that Cursecatcher does. It's simple - neither of the two have abilities which advance the alternative game plan of this deck. It's the same reason I choose to play 4x Merfolk Sovereign over anyX Wake Thrasher. This principle can be broken down into this statement, which I believe to be the most important thing to recognize about Merfolk:
When any combination of multiple Merfolk will compound into significant threats, it becomes essential that the individual creatures have relevant abilities, rather than being powerful individual threats.
Think about that statement for a few moments. Break it down, and absorb it. When every creature in the deck (or a large portion of them) makes the rest better - such as running 12 Lords - then having 2 or 3 creatures in play constitutes a HUGE threat base. Having a Cursecatcher, a LoA, and a Sovereign in play represents a 2-turn clock against most decks (assuming at least 2 life from fetching, FoW, etc.). Thats 2 swings with 3 guys. And we're talking turn 3, possibly with Mutavault online, as well. You all play the deck, you realize how good this scenario is. I'm here telling you that the more lords you play, the more often this will come up. Again, you understand.
But notice something else - Your team is now immune to two very relevant things: Pyroclasm and Volcanic Fallout. In the same situation, you may have had a Thrasher instead of the Sovereign. Let's assume you attack with the Cursecatcher, to prevent your LoA from walking into a trick. This means when you untap, you'll have a 6/6 Wake Thrasher, a 2/2 LoA, and a 2/2 Cursecatcher. Unless your opponent has a 2-damage sweeper, in which case, you lose the team. Sovereign (with his relevant ability of +1/+1) protects the team from the sweeper. LoA (with his relevant ability of +1/+1) protects the team from the sweeper. Even Cursecatcher (with his relevant ability of Daze) protects you by keeping them off Firespout mana for at least 1 more turn. It's the combination of relevant abilities that is important. That's what makes the Fish threatening, not the individual power of the threat.
This is the reason I don't run Wake Thrasher. This is the same reason that I immediately cut Tarmogoyf when Sovereign was printed. I will concede that in a late-game scenario, where you're looking for that answer post-sweeper, both of them are great. However, by correctly building and playing the deck (which could mean not playing them at all), you have the very real ability to ignore the sweeper that would have put you in that position to begin with!
These are my observations from testing, playing, and theorizing about this deck. Take them for what you will, but I stand behind them, and I'm willing to discuss it further if you'd like. I think many of you would stand to see great performance improvements with the deck (and in the bad matchups too - not just the auto-wins) if you consider my advice, and try it out yourself.
Studyng the other tribes and what they excel at, we can resume it with one iconic card of each tribe.
Goblins: Lackey (Instigator) -> They win tempo by cheating into play +mana denial.
Elves: Priest of titania (Elvish archdruid making them more agroo) -> They win tempo by having more mana avaible.
Merfolks: Lord of atlantis. -> We win tempo with efficent lords + denial?
The problem is lord of atlantis is an exception in blue. He brokes the color pie. Its the most efficent lord creature and it is in U! since when U deserves a 2/2 for UU than pumps other creatures?
So in order to make Merfolk better we only need the cards we used transformed in merfolks.
So my wishlist card is:
1U - Master of waves
Creature - Merfolk
Whenever an opponent plays a spell you draw a card and put a +1/+1counter on Master of waves.
When there are 3 counters on master of waves sacrifice it.
1/1.
U Deep sea merfolk
Creature - Merfolk
Sacrifice Deep sea merfolk: Counter target activated ability.
1/1
And just for fun:
1UU Cosi Tidemaster
Planeswalker - Cosi
[+1] Tap or untap up to two target nonland-permanents
[-2] Target player skips his next untap step.
[-6] Get an extra turn after this one.
3
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