relic lets you remove single cards in someone“s graveyard, so goyf will grow smaller, if you remove the right cards.Originally Posted by JMJ430
A1: No. You want to see either Lackey or Vial g1 if you know you're playing Aggro Loam, otherwise, you have no idea anyway. In games 2 and 3, you'll want to make sure you have either Vial, Lackey, or Relic in your opener. If you won g1 and they go 1st, hope and prey they don't Chalice@1. If you win game 2, hope they don't go Chalice@1 in game 3.Q1: If Vial is the key do you guys mulligan towards it?
Q2: If I'm not supposed to be overextending then it is inevitable that Seismic Assault will come down and then it's almost always game over. I don't see how that works. I mean I've tried it but it never works out.
But maybe I just side in too little cards so Q3: how many SB cards do you put in and which ones exactly?
A2: Whether or not you -under- or -over- extend is dependant on your current situation. If the opponent has not stabilized yet by playing Burning Wish for a Devastating Dreams, or put a Seismic Assault into play, you want to overextend to kill them before they get to play one of those. If you suspect a Devastating Dreams may be in their hand already, based on the way they are playing, don't overextend. If they do Burning Wish for a Devastating Dreams, or cast Seismic Assault, don't overextend. If they have either of those cards, you have to slow play and gain card advantage until you can either recover from Dreams or answer Seismic Assault.
A3: You want to board in 4 Relic. That's your answer to their Terravore's and Goyf's, as well as their Loam engine and Seismic Assault. In my build, I also bring in 2 Boartusk Liege, since he helps dodge Devastating Dreams, and is the hardest pumper to get rid of (toughness-wise). You'll want to have at least 4 pump Goblins postboard; in most builds, that will typically be 4 Goblin Chieftan. I run 2 Goblin Chieftan MD and 4 Boartusk Liege SB, so my build is slightly off the wall (I like the 4/2 split of Warchief/Chieftan MD, and 4 Boartusk SB is my anti E Plague/Firespout). What to actually drop for these cards, I'll leave that up to you, since I don't know what your build looks like.
QFT.
A2: just remember that if they DD (likely for 2-3) you gotta have an active vial, or some lackey + other gobbos in hand. You can safely "overextend" as long as you're playing matrons, ringleaders and crafters, cause they actually replace/draw cards, so if you got sweeped, you still have gas. Remember that if they don't have a crusher in play, they usually can't safely DD if you have an active Relic.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
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18 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Gobliln Matron
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Piledriver
3 Stingscourger
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Vexing Shusher
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Tinkerer
This is what I am working on at the moment. I definitely like having 3 SCG in combination with the 4 chieftains. I cant see running port since I need the double red more than ever. Thoughts on my board? I play around alot of zoo
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I really like your list except for the SB.
About the SGC I don't know: with 22 lands seems a lot. I'd probably cut one and play one more Gempalm or something, cause I don't feel like 5 slots for removal are enough.
It's surprising, however, how many monored lists are taking into the same direction (cutting piledrivers and ports for chieftains and mountains).
Great minds think alike!
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
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Only when you're exiling cards from your own GY you have that choice.
What exactly doesnt appeal to you about the SB? I have answers for what I feel are the larger problems the deck faces. At my last tournament (not playing with Instigators obv) my 2 losses were to ANT(which I expect to lose to unless they have a really slow hand), and Ichorid(game 1 he got way ahead and g2 he played exhume returning Shpinx of the Steel Wind(not expected). Every other match I felt good about the board. I havent found anything else I would prefer in there.
The 3rd Commander is really nice, with technically 8 lackeys in the deck, he hits on turn 2/3 quite often and in tandem with chieftain is pure insanity. Although that is one slot that gets boarded out more often than anything else
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Vexing Shusher: This card is useful only against chalice, counterbalance and counters. Chalice@1 shuts off only 8 cards in our deck, so it's rarely a problem. Counterbalance gets often sided out against gobbos due to our high curve, so I won't side against somenthing that gets sided out. Against counters it can be good if you have mana to spare (in an already mana hungry deck) and if you draw it: you'll never matron Shusher, cause against counter heavy decks Ringleader is usually MUCH better.
Goblin King: The lord ability can be good, but we already have 4 maindeck Chieftain, so it's not needed. Mountainwalk is not great either, cause in the mirror it plain sucks, and every other red-matchup (beside aggroloam and 43 lands) is going to run tons of removal. If we attack and king gets removed before blocks, we're probably in a bad, bad position.
Red Elemental Blast: I'm not in love with this card, even if sometimes it comes in handy. Against merfolk it's a house, but it's already a favourable matchup. Against combo it's good, but we'll rarely win 2 out of 3 matches thans to REB against them. In the control/aggrocontrol matchup it's good but not great (unless they play War Monk). Not that better than the goblins it's going to substitute. We're a mana hungry deck, and waiting one more turn to drop our Ringleader/Matron/SGC is simply something we can't usually afford.
My SB is quite similar to yours except those slots.
Here's the SB I'm playing (and suggesting):
// Sideboard
Must haves:
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
Good ones:
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
Anarchy really solves problems in a lot of matchups. It might not seem to be that useful, but it takes care of:
And this list is quite old, now you can probably add Tidehollow Sculler, Ajani Vengeant, Sphinx of Steel Wind, and a few others.
This makes Anarchy a good card in the control and the ProBant matchups for example. Instead of a so-so card like REB, you get a game breaking card.
Good, but not greats:
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [WL] Gaea's Blessing
Those are flexible slots, where you can play your REBs, if you like them.
I like the gaea's blessing and how it can win a couple of matchups alone for a single SB slot (I'm currently raping guys testing the new mill-trap card, painterstone, and the random solidarity).
The pithing needles are general utility that comes in handy against manlands, planeswalkers, belcher, Seismic Assault, Jitte, Circle of protection:red, etc.
...
Long story short: -1 Shusher -1 King +2 Anarchy for sure.
And then, if you feel comfortable with REBs it's ok, otherwise try testing Needles, Chalices, Gaea's Blessing, etc.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
About Goblin King- I ran 3 maindeck for a few years, until Chieftain was printed. The whole if he gets removed we're really screwed thing rarely happens. I admit it can happen, but with Lackeys, Warchiefs, Piledrivers, your opponent is usually out of removal spells. I think boarding him may be worth trying. It seems like it'd be good against Plague and Pyroclasm, maybe a house in the mirror, and look at Merfolk and Elves, they run like 8 and 12 lords right? If it works for them why doesn't Goblins run more lords as well?
@Greenone: I used Anarchy for awhile but for me it seems against decks that run humility/Elspeth etc.. you would be waiting too long to cast it and likely they will have a counter for it. I havent restructured my board since upping the chieftains to 4 and running Instigator, so King as you said isnt needed much anymore.
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Partly because our lords aren't as good. Mad Auntie is appropriate only for the black splash version of the deck, and even then doesn't seem to see much play in multiples, to my knowledge. By contrast, both Imperious Perfect and Merrow Reejerey are fully on-color for their respective decks, and both have better abilities, by and large. Comparing the older lords reveals that Mountainwalk is a far poorer ability in Legacy than Island or Forestwalk. Given the prevalence of Tarmogoyf and Force of Will, both of those landwalking abilities give substantial evasion, whereas Mountainswalk is useful in only a fraction of Deck to Beat matchups (UGr Thresh is the only one I can think of).
Other decks run 12 lords because all 3 unique lords are powerful additions, whereas for us, only 1 of our +1/+1 Lords is really appropriate for the deck's strategy, assuming you're mono-red.
Zoo, Goyfsligh, Goblins, Burn, Canadian Thresh, Aggro Loam, most Survival decks play mountains. The last 3 decks named aren't played as much as the first 4 but unblockable Goblins seems good to me in all those matchups. I'm not saying the Goblin King is great or that he's staying in my board. But I'm testing it in the board. In a local tourney tonight he was huge against some random black deck that cast turn 1 Plague and in the mirror I mountainwalked for 28 damage to end game 3.
On a side note I got smashed by Merfolk in the finals of said tourney. I was told by many that I win that matchup no problem. Therefore I didn't have shit to board against them. I got fucked over by Daze and Force Of Will game 1 and mana fucked game 2. I was thinking REB would've been great with one Mountain. He Wastelanded my Badland and my Wasteland. I don't know if he just got lucky or what?
What split between warchiefs and chieftains are you guys running? I was like, 2 chieftains/4 warchiefs and now I'm 3/3, but I'm really tempted to use 4 chieftains/2 warchiefs.
I don't know how I missed Zoo, but yeah, Goblin King offers evasion there. As for the rest: Goblin King is obviously pretty good in the mirror, though he is symmetrical, and is a terrible card to have if you fall behind your opponent in the mirror. I haven't seen many Burn decks that are overly concerned with blocking your guys. Matchups like Zoo, Goyf Sligh, and Aggro Loam are all tough regardless of King because there's a good chance he won't stick around for very long. I'm not saying King is terrible coming out of the sideboard, he isn't, but there are more effective ways to fight E. Plague. I've never played him against Zoo, but I imagine he'd get 1 for 1ed pretty quickly. Interesting thought, though, given that he circumvents the entire "Goyf sitting there blockin' me dudes" thing.
Keep in mind, though, that you asked why we weren't running more lords, not why we weren't talking about King in the board.
As for Merfolk, that's generally a very strong matchup for us. We have a number of advantages, like removal that gets around Standstill (Gempalm, if you're running it) as well as our own Ęther Vial. However, the more vulnerable your mana-base is to Wasteland/Stifle, the worse time you'll have. Of course, you also want to have a Vial around, to head off any FoW/Daze shenanigans. That can be tough to accomplish, though, if they start off with the counter-heavy hand.
4/4
Both lords are too good to pass up.
Well, without wasteland involved, Moat, Humility or Elspeth comes down on turn 4, and Anarchy comes down on turn 4 too. What's slow in that?
Every card but vexing shusher, vialed dudes and Krosan Grip can be countered. I guess your opponent is going to counter your vials, lackeys, instigators, chieftains, warchiefs, matrons before turn 4. Otherwise, why isn't him dead?
Anyway, any deck running 4cc white control cards has to spend its counters on our early "if I resolve this you'll never get a chance to counter anything else" spells. Anarchy will often be safe.
Against Plague and Pyroclasm Boartusk Liege is definetly better, and in the mirror King is really risky to play if you're not alpha striking (and if the opponent has removal).
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I haven't posted anything on TheSource yet, but I've been looking at the posts for a while now.
I am a dedicated combo player from the Netherlands, but Goblins got my attention a few months before Goblin Chieftain, let alone Warren Instigator got spoiled. Before this happened, I was already surprised by its (their :P) strength. Now, I will try to get involved in this discussion.
I've tested quite a lot (mainly against Zoo, Landstill (w/ and w/o White), Merfolk, Combo (of course), ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (all kinds), goldfish) and this is my list to go:
18 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Gobliln Matron
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Warren Instigator
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Stingscourger
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 open slot
sb:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 open slots
Explanations, Mainboard:
First, the lands. 22 Lands if probably best, i.e. lower is not enough. I'm not sure we can run 2 Ports in stead of 2 mountains. I don't think Chrome Mox or Gemstone Caverns can make the cut. We can't effort card-disadvantage for moderate, situational speed.
I consider Vial, Lackey, Matron, Ringleader, Chieftain, Instigator, SCG, Piledriver, Warchief, Incinerator all mandatory. The question is in what numbers. Vial, Lackey, Matron and Ringleader is easy: we want 4 (more is not legal). The Warchief could be cut to 3, but I wouldn't like it.
I don't want to run less than 3 Piledrivers, I don't want to run less than 3 Incinerator, I don't want to run less than 3 Instigator, I don't want to run less than 3 Stingscourger, I don't want to run less than 3 Chieftain, I don't want to run less than 2 SCG. I think I made my point clear:
There is 1 open slot in Goblins (IMHO) !! And it can be everything:
4th Piledriver always good, maybe not necessary.
4th Instigator maybe too much lackey-effects, 'cause you need goblins in hand to drop.
4th Chieftain, very good addition, but also maybe too much lords (this had my preference at the moment).
23rd land
Something geeky like Lightning Crafter, Kiki-Jiki, Goblin Tinkerer, Thorn, ReB, anything.
I'd like to hear from you what you think about this.
Sideboard:
As proposed earlier above, 4 Relic and 4 Pyrokenisis are mandatory against too much. Then, because you are mono-red now, you will (!) need an answer against Plague. It is still seen play too much to ignore it. You already have Chieftain, but more answers is better. And Boartusk Liege survives double Plague. So I consider 2 Liege also mandatory.
Then I'm not quite sure, Goblins can't side too much out, so you will need some answers where Relic and Pyro doesn't help against. This is first of all COMBO. But you have to ask yourself, do I want to spend sideboard space for a (slight) chance to win this matchup. If your meta is filled with (good) combo-players (like mine), then I believe you cannot neglect this match-up. Thorn is the best card against Combo. Pillar is more versatible, since it's also pretty good against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh.
Goblin Tinkerer kills Dreadnought, Explosives, Chalice, Moxen/LED, artifactland, Top, and probably a lot more. Tinkerer also kills some large artifact, but only once.
Other good options are:
Zo-Zu, the Punisher (against Loam/Landstill).
Jitte against Jitte.
Goblin Sharpshooter.
On the latter, how good is he? I've tested him a bit, but how strong is he? It all depends on your boardposition, but my experience is that he's not always that strong. As in, you don't always want to tutor for it, and if you draw it, it's not exactly what you want. Sharpshooter has been a must-have a few years a go, but does it still make the cut?
Let me know what you think.
Nice to see another dutchman active in this threadOk, first some things about ur MD; 4th instigator is NOT overkill ;). This because he is actually is a strong beater too with some lords. Also 3 piledrivers is ok, but i dropped to 2 since you now have an other very strong 2C drop. For the rest, I am truly enjoying the 8 ''lords'', and havent found any reasons to cut on em. That last slot is something i agree with you about, its optional; i personally run Kikki there since i found him pretty awesome once again, but that might be something personal
About the sb:
I suggest you look at what green_one stated above, but if you dont want to put effort in scrolling i'll try telling in short. The 4 RoP, kinesis and 1 tinkerer is pretty solid, then i would chose for 2 anarchy and 1 sharpshooter for reasons green_one stated above(damn you actually have to scroll now
) Sharpshooter is actually still really usefull. The lieges in your board are a bit overkill i think when you are playing 8 lords maindeck (or maybe 7 ) Since with WI in the MD now, you will have more loards sooner, so i dont think there needed anymore.
Hope i helped you a little
~Maarten
I'd still recommend using Boartusk Liege in the sideboard against Engineered Plague. Without a Liege in your deck, you can't win through two plagues. Knowing that, your opponent will readily mulligan into at least one plague. One plague usually buys the opponent enough time to find the second.
I like the idea of cutting down on Goblin Piledriver. I actually have been experimenting with it for a long time. The only problem is that it weakens the matchup against Merfolk. I opt to use Pyroblast rather than Pyrokinesis to make up the difference.
What do you use Goblin Sharpshooter for?
I'm Dutch and you even know me.Nice to see another dutchman active in this thread
About the sb:
I suggest you look at what green_one stated above. Sharpshooter is actually still really usefull. The lieges in your board are a bit overkill i think when you are playing 8 lords maindeck (or maybe 7 ) Since with WI in the MD now, you will have more loards sooner, so i dont think there needed anymore.
Green One actually didn't offer any explanation for Sharpshooter (or did I miss it?). So I wonder in which match-ups it's useful. EDIT: and Malchar just beat me to it.
I encountered Engineered plague the other day and it was hardly a problem because of Chieftain. So I wonder if the extra Lieges really are that important.
Elves, goblin mirror, Ichorid, combo (if they Empty the warrens)I'm Dutch and you even know me.
Green One actually didn't offer any explanation for Sharpshooter (or did I miss it?). So I wonder in which match-ups it's useful.
My rationality behind running 4 Instigator is it draws counter, having 8 lackey effects is huge, even if the first time you attack it doesnt further your game plan, its a card the opponent must answer
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