[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

[kicks_422]

Has anyone opted to run an Angel of Despair or a Woodfall Primus MD for those Game 1 cards that could slow us down? E.g. anything from Enchantress, Ensnaring Bridges, Humilities, etc. Or is the that DR target slot better served for something else?

[lorddotm]

4 GOLGARI GRAVE-TROLL
4 STINKWEED IMP
3 GOLGARI THUG
4 TIRELESS TRIBE
4 NARCOEMEBA
4 BLOODGHAST
1 SADISTIC HYPNOTIS
1 CEPHALID SAGE
1 FLAME-KIN ZEALOT

4 BREAKTHROUGH
4 CARFUL STUDY
4 CABAL THERAPY
4 BRIDGE FROM BELOW
3 DREAD RETURN

4 UNDISCOVERED PARADISE
4 GEMSTONE MINE
4 CEPHALID COLOSSEUM
2 DAKMOR SALVAGE
1 CITY OF BRASS

SB
4 PITHING NEEDLE
4 CHAIN OF VAPOR
3 FORCE OF WILL
2 ANCIENT GRUDGE
1 ANCESTOR'S CHOSEN
1 SADISTIC HYPNOTIST

This list just Top 8'd at the Philly 5K.

Just wondering what you guys think of this decks power, does Bloodghast make Ichorid invalid now?

Does this list push non-LED Ichorid into the superior version?

[Bluemagex2517]

4 GOLGARI GRAVE-TROLL
4 STINKWEED IMP
3 GOLGARI THUG
4 TIRELESS TRIBE
4 NARCOEMEBA
4 BLOODGHAST
1 SADISTIC HYPNOTIS
1 CEPHALID SAGE
1 FLAME-KIN ZEALOT

4 BREAKTHROUGH
4 CARFUL STUDY
4 CABAL THERAPY
4 BRIDGE FROM BELOW
3 DREAD RETURN

4 UNDISCOVERED PARADISE
4 GEMSTONE MINE
4 CEPHALID COLOSSEUM
2 DAKMOR SALVAGE
1 CITY OF BRASS

SB
4 PITHING NEEDLE
4 CHAIN OF VAPOR
3 FORCE OF WILL
2 ANCIENT GRUDGE
1 ANCESTOR'S CHOSEN
1 SADISTIC HYPNOTIST

This list just Top 8'd at the Philly 5K.

Just wondering what you guys think of this decks power, does Bloodghast make Ichorid invalid now?

Does this list push non-LED Ichorid into the superior version?

If you're interested, I explain my build here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=15175

[lorddotm]

If you're interested, I explain my build here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=15175

I read it, I was just wondering about everyone's thoughts. Personally, when I feel like turning dudes sideways I pick up LED Ichorid, and I was wondering, Is this better?

[Ssbm Rocks1]

The deck seems pretty good. Now that I have tested it, Bloodghast seems better than ichorid

Here is my list in testing:
Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
2 [FUT] Dakmor Salvage
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [5E] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Bloodghast
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage
4 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
2 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
3 [OD] Careful Study

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [OD] Sadistic Hypnotist

I'm not sure about the SB, but I hate not playing 8 continuous discard outlets, so I added PIMPS.

[andrew77]

If you're interested, I explain my build here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=15175

Honestly, I proxied up the deck and tested it and although bloodghast isn't bad the deck is really clunky. It is much slower than LED ichorid and has mana issues way too often.

It also seems like you had pretty easy matchups and were fairly lucky along the way.

[GreenOne]

The good thing about this version is the resilence to graveyard hate and the fact that you're playing more lands.

However, I don't like a lot of things about the list:
- the reanimation targets: are they that better than a GGT? I used to run the Vindicate Angel, but it was often useless maindeck.
- the lack of ichorid: ok, you don't need 4, but what about 2 or 3 in addition to Bloodghast?
- 3 Dread Return: with less targets, I guess I'm good with 2.
- 4 Breakthrough: I usually prefer having a creature to slowroll the opponent, cause we're usually already fast enough to keep up with format's speed. The only matchup I really want to see this is combo.

@FoW: there are already some lists playing it in vintage. Might be a good addition.

So here's the list I'm testing at the moment:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
3 [CH] City of Brass
2 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
2 [FUT] Dakmor Salvage

// Dredgers
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug

// Comes from grave creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [TO] Ichorid
3 [ZEN] Bloodghast

// Discard engine
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Careful Study
2 [TO] Breakthrough

// Other
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair

Is a merge between the standard LEDless ichorid list and the 5k$ list?
What do you guys think?

[Minty]

Greater Gargadon seems like a musthave with Bloodghast...

[anonymos]

So in the tourney report there was a question about a MD blue 1 drop to enable discarding. I know they wanted a creature, but has anyone considered Mind Bomb? Yay for obscure Uncommons from 4th/5th and The Dark!


Mind Bomb - CC = U
Oracle text: Each player may discard up to three cards. Mind Bomb deals damage to each player equal to 3 minus the number of cards he or she discarded this way.

I think just about every deck would just take the bolt, while we get to discard 3. Only time I see it honestly working against us would be for Reanimator nonsense, Life from the Loam, or the mirror.

[Anusien]

I would rather run Hapless Researcher than Mind Bomb.

[anonymos]

Probably.

[Bluemagex2517]

So in the tourney report there was a question about a MD blue 1 drop to enable discarding. I know they wanted a creature, but has anyone considered Mind Bomb? Yay for obscure Uncommons from 4th/5th and The Dark!


Mind Bomb - CC = U
Oracle text: Each player may discard up to three cards. Mind Bomb deals damage to each player equal to 3 minus the number of cards he or she discarded this way.

I think just about every deck would just take the bolt, while we get to discard 3. Only time I see it honestly working against us would be for Reanimator nonsense, Life from the Loam, or the mirror.

The only reason why PIMP and Tribe work is because they can discard dredgers every turn, and they can be sacrificed. Mind Bomb = worse than one with nothing. Not worth it just for another card to pitch to force. Hapless is ok, but I like breakthrough and careful study better. I would consider 2 Tolarian Winds like other the dredge deck in the top 16.

[Bluemagex2517]

However, I don't like a lot of things about the list:
- the reanimation targets: are they that better than a GGT? I used to run the Vindicate Angel, but it was often useless maindeck.
- the lack of ichorid: ok, you don't need 4, but what about 2 or 3 in addition to Bloodghast?

- Yes they are... I dread returned GGT 2 times on the day. Swords and path are just too heavy in the format, he's too risky and no evasion. Sadistic is needed for Thresh, ANT, ect... Without flame-kin I would never have beaten lands. Cephalid Sage makes the deck better, my testing %'s increased dramatically after adding sage.
- I tried Ichorid, but it Bloodghast was better so I went with 4 of that. Ichorid got cut because I thought 8 returning creatures plus 4 enabling creatures. Keep in mine LED ichorid usually runs 3 ichorid. 4 blooodghast + some number of ichorids seemed like a waste of slots for enablers.

[Bluemagex2517]

Honestly, I proxied up the deck and tested it and although bloodghast isn't bad the deck is really clunky. It is much slower than LED ichorid and has mana issues way too often.

It also seems like you had pretty easy matchups and were fairly lucky along the way.

I'll admit I was fairly luck along the way. But, LED ichorid is far more inconsistent. LED does nothing with either deep analysis already in hand or 1 of a few lands in hand along the with breakthrough or putrid IMP. Without LED you need both a land and an enabler, which my deck has far more of. Colosseum sucks so much in LED Ichorid, because you so rarely have 2 lands.

I'm not as explosive as LED ichorid, but more consistent. I'm as consistent as LEDless with ichorid, because they can run the same number of lands and enablers, but I'm faster on average. In testing I mana screwed and mulled to oblivion 1 in 15-20 games. It never happened in the tourney.

I was fairly lucky along the way, but any deck is going to need to be fairly lucky. Some of my choices created that luck. Some of it was straight crazy luck (every time I double forced).

merfolk is not the greatest MU, especially post board or if they have Jitte main (though neither did that I played). ANT is a ridiculously horrible MU, I just got super lucky. Lands is a pretty bad MU, if he had yard hate in his board I would never have won either of those games. And won the last only by being really lucky. None of those match-ups (except merfolk) get better with ichorid, in fact the ichorid version lost to Lands to miss out on the top 8.

[Minty]

Dont you think having just 4 permanent discard outlets is kinda weak?

[Bluemagex2517]

Dont you think having just 4 permanent discard outlets is kinda weak?

Not really. A. they are redundant. B. they do very little without some way to draw more cards long with them. c. The only ones worth while are tibe and PIMP, neither of which pitches to Force.

[1maarten1]

Going lower then 8 permanent dc outlets, means ur taking away from the decks consistancy, which is the reason why the deck is good. I dont like the list comparing it to Led less OR Led versions. I guess its like a third option you could chose for, a lil faster then Non-Led, slower then LED and a little more consistant then Led. I'll stick with my Ichorids

~Maarten

[Anusien]

- Yes they are... I dread returned GGT 2 times on the day. Swords and path are just too heavy in the format, he's too risky and no evasion. Sadistic is needed for Thresh, ANT, ect... Without flame-kin I would never have beaten lands.

I have never had a Troll go farming in a metagame full of Landstill. It's about being smart with StP. Just because you can cast Dread Return doesn't mean you should or have to.

Instead, people like to send my discard outlets farming or path them. Which is why I really really like running 8.

[Bluemagex2517]

I have never had a Troll go farming in a metagame full of Landstill. It's about being smart with StP. Just because you can cast Dread Return doesn't mean you should or have to.

Instead, people like to send my discard outlets farming or path them. Which is why I really really like running 8.

If incremental advantage fits your playing style/ works better for you than play LEDless Ichorid. If you want to quickly and consistently dread return for the win play my deck. If you want to roll the dice on turn 2 win play LED Ichorid. I think it should depend on the metagame, there is no clearly superior version. I felt my version was superior for the meta-game that was shaping up for the 5k. The $850 tell me I was right. I think it would be very short sighted to only ever consider one version. There is a reason I bought Ichorids and putrid imps, and its name is merfolk. I don't like LED, unless the meta is like 15%+ white stax/ similar decks with out force that put wasteland to good use.

If someone swords/paths my discard outlet I discard what I can and hope to hit more dredgers when I dredge. 9 times out of ten this will work out. Then again I run an extra 2 dredge 2s. If my first discard outlet gets exiled the second one's primary value is sacing anyway. Sure in really rare instances you won't hit any dredgers and they will be stranded in hand. Well in those cases be a man and draw until you discard. Undiscovered helps with that plan.

[sunshine]

Not really. A. they are redundant. B. they do very little without some way to draw more cards long with them. c. The only ones worth while are tibe and PIMP, neither of which pitches to Force.

A. That's the point. Redundancy in our list yields... well redundancy, or consistency if you prefer. If you mean it sucks to draw multiples in your opening hand, I have to disagree there - having a second permanent discard outlet is great simply because they are the number one target for counters. It's not that permanent discard outlets number 5-8 are bad it's just that in a world without counters you may be better off running extra copies of Breakthrough - which you did and I'm glad it worked out for you. I think we can agree though that running Pimp over extra Breakthroughs is a safer play if you expect a "blue shifted" meta.

B. Really? I would say that's when they shine, would you mind expanding that point a little?

C. This is true, and neither do pitch to FoW. PImp does pitch to Unmask though, however, I can see how FoW would seem appealing if you want to stop your opponent's turn 1 Crypt/Relic when on the draw. The problem is siding in FoW almost forces you to either also side in CoV or not take out any blue cards (Breakthrough) which seems a little awkward considering there are also 4 PNeedles to bring in.