I feel like bringing new life to this thread.
So i ask this, since Goyf Sligh and Zoo blur the lines of similarity way too much nowadays, what about the playstyles of both? Which playstyle is better?
In my opinion Zoo is a bit slower than Goyf Sligh because of the larger creature count. But, alot of hybrid decks have been posted on here. I've tried a few of them a few times, and i always finding myself wanting to play the heavier burn builds like i do Zoo. It makes for awkward thinking processes.
Thoughts?
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Take up Voodoo, its an aweful matchup for you. Seriously though, run Perish.Originally Posted by Nelis
Zoo, not even a question. Besides the fact that there are no real disadvantages to adding the 3rd color, PoP has gotten worse and worse in the last few successive tournaments. This is partially due to the new fetchlands, but also because people worry about tempo decks running Wasteland.
Not running swords effects in this format is dumb. Not running Path to Exile is dumb, that is all.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
I'm asking this to Zoo players
Sylvan library seem to be played more than Black nowadays (at least, that's how I see things)
What are the pros/cons of Dark confidant vs Sylvan Library?
no manip with confidant in the deck (no SDT so you hemorrhage life uncontrolably), library library lets you dig and put cards back, you only lose life for cards you keep... very useful... plus the manabase is way tighter this way...
Also, BOB is a target for swords/smother/path/etc. the library is a little more difficult to get rid of than a creature as pretty much every deck has some sort of removal, where as an enchantment is harder to deal with game 1 for sure and post-board they bring in like 2 grips at the most...
All in all, its pretty passe' to run confidants, library is much more efficient-> thats why pretty much everyone plays it.
Just to rub it in 21 lands 14 fetches and a playset of lynxes mark my words...
Martin Juza
Pro Tour–Austin Top 8, Extended
Main Deck
60 cards
4 Arid Mesa
1 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
1 Mountain
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Verdant Catacombs
21 lands
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kird Ape
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
23 creatures
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
3 Might of Alara
3 Path to Exile
4 Tribal Flames
16 other spells
Sideboard
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Yixlid Jailer
15 sideboard cards
Hello Zoo players,
I played a 23 player legacy event yesterdays here in Berlin, Germany with maindeck Helix und Magma Jet. I finished 2nd with a 4-1 record, only loosing to the mighty Quinn which finished 1st at the end.
Back at home I checked the Coverage from Pro Tour Austin a was suprise by this little two card combo between Burn of the Gruvewillows and Punishing Fire.
What do you guys think about it in Legacy. Espacially in Zoo, when the game comes to the late game and the boards are empty, recurring burnspells seems to be a very nice option in my eyes. Your thoughts, please!
This seems really awful. Not only do you need to rely on both parts of this combo (because neither one is particularly good by itself), you're essentially paying 3 mana a turn for 1 damage. That seems really, really inefficient if you ask me.
Yesterday I played in the Jupiter Games tourney in Binghamton with over 40 other other players. I made top 4 with the following:
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Goyf
4 Pridemage
2 Teeg
2 Wooly Thoctar
4 Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 P2E
1 Jitte
2 Sylvan Library
2 Fireblast
3 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savanah
SB:
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
3 Price of Progress
1 Ethersworn Cannoist
2 Vexing Shusher
3 Choke
3 Ravenous Trap
In swiss I went 5-1-0
Round 1:
Elf Prog. 1-2
I won one game with a Jitte, but I cold not find one in the other 2
Round 2:
UWb Landstill w/ CB 2-0
Maindeck Teeg wins games sometimes.
Round 3:
Bloodghast Dredge 2-1
The trap was a really good piece of hate in this matchup. The pilot was not expecting it so I was able to wreck him with it in games 2 and 3.
Round 4:
Goblins 2-1
Game 1 I got overrun by SGC tokens. 2 and 3 I killed lots of goblins and swung with Goyf.
Round 5:Affinity 2-0
Removal won the first game, and 19 points of damage from Goyf, PoP, and Fireblast on turn 5 won the second game.
Round 6:
Goyf Sligh w/ white splash: 2-0
I had more Grim Lavamancers and removal than he did.
Top 8
Suicide Black 2-0
I played more dudes than him and won.
Top 4
ANT 2-1
Even maindeck Teeg could not help me here. This is just a bad matchup.
Maindeck Teeg was an all star all day stalling landstill's big plays, Dread Returns, and opposing Fireblasts.
My sideboard however needs work. I had shushers in there, but when I wanted to side them in, all of my 2 drops were already awesome against blue decks. Maybe I can replace them with more combo hate.
I am approaching to this deck, so I'm a bit noob of this archetype.
You ever considered using bloodbraid elf instead of Wooly Thoctar/knight of the reliquary ? may be an idea or not worth it?
I'm no Zoo expert. Thoctar is going to be bigger than Elf. KotR is almost always bigger than Elf and grows. The best thing that Elf can do is get you a free Goyf or Fireblast. The worst it can do is give you a Kird Ape. And it costs more. Ranger of Eos was played briefly in one list (I don't remember which), but it's not really played anymore. The reason why it was good was because you could get 2 3/3s AND the 2/2 Ranger. Or I suppose you could get removal in the form of Grim Lavamancer.
You can't get a free fireblast off of the Elf (6 > 4), and 4 mana is more than you can safely assume you'll get. After much debate Knight vs Thoctar is a matter of taste.
Sure, if you want to open yourself up to losing to 2 wastelands every game...
See, I don't know why some are considering KotR: Sure, he CAN get big, but all it takes is one timely Relic or Crypt and he gets whacked. We already have Gofy: we really don't want more creature relying on the graveyard. Also, you can't run him with Grim Lavamancer (assuming you wanted to).
Thoctar may not be able to grow as large and costs three colors, but he's always a 5/4.
I've said this eight million times already, but I'll say it again. Removing non-land cards from your yard with lavamancer is savage tech.
I'd give you a more serious response, but really, just rtft.
You may also make your Gofys smaller. Good if the other person is using Gofys: not so good otherwise. You're also assuming that we actually have the option everytime we want our Lavamancer to mini-Kamehameha Wave something.
Can the freaking discussion about thoctar versus knight just end? It has been settled, it goes down to personal taste and isn't a YES or NO answer.
I'm also wondering why people are bringing up extended lists?? This format is completely different, just because they both play a lot of similar cards and this deck was basically ported from extended at one point does not make them similar at all since they are in completely different formats. We might be able to gather some insight from extended lists but relying on them as part of an argument is really, really weak. Grove of the Burnwillows? Bloodbraid Elf? What is going on here
I've played all three creatures in my deck since the day kotr came out and to this day have never had a situation where their disynergy has cost me a game. I have, however, had at least 20-25 games where kotr's ability to be fucking ridiculous has won the game where thoctar would have been nigh worthless.
Seriously, though, just read the thread. We've discussed knight so many times it's gotten unbelievably old...
On another note, I played in a small legacy tournament today and won with the following list;
21 land (1 canopy, 10 fetches, 3/2/2 plateau/taiga/savannah and 3 basics)
4 nacatl
4 goyf
4 pridemage
3 mancer
2 ape
2 figure
2 kotr
4 bolt
4 helix
4 path
2 library
1 jitte
2 reckless charge
SB:
3 teeg
4 samurai of the pale curtain
2 engineered explosives
2 jitte
2 krosan grip
2 stp
Obfuscate Freely's analysis of the 1-main deck jitte appeals to me. It worked out pretty well today. The only really novel thing about my maindeck today was the return of two reckless charges, something that I used to run when I first started playing this deck. I've missed playing with it lately, so I figured I'd try running it again. It's still just as good as I remembered it being, allowing some very quick clocks when you have two one drops in hand. Although it's inclusion does make me want two more kird apes over the figures to take better advantage of it. I don't know if I'll play it again next time I play the deck, but it was very good today... after all, getting six damage out of one card (Or more when you factor in the haste attack you otherwise wouldn't have gotten) is nice. Plus, it's a sorcery, which is nice for goyf sometimes.
The sideboard is far more interesting. Last month I lost to Dredge in the swiss and top 4, so I put a playset of samurai in my sb for it this week. Good thing I did, since I once again played against the deck, though a different pilot. EE was the other interesting thing. I've found it to be very good in the mirror when you're falling behind or against cbtop decks since you can play it for 2 with 4 mana and effectively neuter cbalance.
Anyway, quick rundown, I beat naya zoo with thoctars and bloodbraid (2-0), Elf combo (2-1), dredge (2-1, samurai+teeg is yay :D) a jund style deck with bloodbraids, leeches, and stuff kinda remniscent of what's popular in t2 nowadays, then cut to top 4, beating dredge again (2-1 again, samurai's still awesome) and then stax (Samurai was good here too, but I only one because he kept a terrible hand g1 saying he "didn't feel like shuffling.")
I'd write more but I gotta finish an essay for tomorrow. EE's pretty cool in the SB though, it's really versatile for a lot of matchups and I think it's worth testing more.
Doh, my mistake.
@ Drago
KotR does make Relic/Crypt hurt a lot more, but it doesn't make us severely graveyard dependent. If you're actively TRYING to make him bigger than a 6/6, you're doing it wrong. You can definitly run him and Grim Lavamancer.
Thoctar is a solid creature, just a pinch harder to cast. He has a naturally large butt, which helps.
As previously stated, it comes down to taste.
I've been happily running 2 KotR and 2 Jitte in my Zoo deck. I haven't gotten around to trying out Sylvan Library though. How is it?
Its a card that blue decks normally have to counter or they lose. Its also a beast in the mirror match.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
@hungryLIKEALION: Kudos on Reckless Charge being ran. I remember your first decklist had those in it.
Is Samurai of the Pale Curtain really worth it? It doesn't hit their library which makes it seem worse. It nails Ichorids and reanimated stuff but by the time they reanimate FKZ you're dead anyway ya know? Plus the double white makes it an eyesore. I ran Serra Avenger way back in the day before Nacatl was printed and the double white was an issue then.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
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