Forgot to address this, my bad,Originally Posted by inkaras
Dredge, -2 thoctar, out fireblast, in crypt/relic/hate
Gobs/tribal, out thoctar or price/fireblast, in jitte
Blue/standstill, out fireblast or thoctar lavamancer, in choke and shusher
just try to feel out what the weak links are in the matchups (what card would you be most sad to topdeck) then replace with what would be stronger... you'll get the hang of it in time, it really can be a difficult task with a new deck, the more experience you get with the deck the easier it becomes
Consider running Ancient Grudge in the Sideboard. It's a house. I know we already have Pridemage and Grip, but i opted to run Grudge before Pridemage was printed and still do. It's insane. I would also suggest Jitte also.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
thanks everyone so far for your input.
do I need ancient grudge? I know it's a house but 2-3 krosan grip plus pridemages, 6-7 removal seems like enough? I might be wrong on this. it's a shame it doesn't hit enchantments as well.
What about null rod? good verse any particular deck? I know some of you were playing it at one time or another.
How much weaker is relic verse crypt when it comes to dredge and 43 land? (I assume that this is also good verse land)
I play 1 jitte main and 1 in the side is 2 enough? my gut says yes but thought I'd ask anyways.
Anyone tested EE? how well does it work and in which matches are you using it?
2 jitte is perfect between sb and main.
I don't like EE, its a control card this is an aggro deck, powder keg might be better if your going for token kill.
relic is better against thresh, remove a card every turn to keep them off threshold... but crypt is better all-around because it removes 'target' graveyard so your goyf stays big... its a good idea to split them because of pithing needle.
Stick with grip... ability to hit enchantments is key... grudge is great against affinity and chalice decks, but I feel grip is stronger in a broader sense. 6ish answers is more than enough. If affinity and Dragon Stompy are big in your meta, maybe grudge over grip. But the 2cc(1cc flashback) is an easy target for counterbalance, the 3cc of grip not so much, most countertop lists run two maybe three 3cc spells... you do also have shusher to push things through, but grip can stand alone in that matchup
I don't think Loxodon meant to run grudge over grip. I agree with him that Grudge is great, I used to play it for a long time but cut it recently when dreadstill got less popular all of a sudden. It's still a good card, definitely, but I haven't had room on my sideboard for it lately.
I think I'm the only person who plays EE, so I'll field this.
I play it for Countertop, Dreadstill, the Mirror, some builds of merfolk, dredge, and anything random with lots of tokens like belcher.
In the Mirror I usually like to take the control role anyway, so it's pretty good when the opponent drops a multitude of 2 drops or 1 drops and you blow them out with one card. Against Countertop I think it's important to have sort of a 'panic button'. You can play it for 2 counters as a 4drop, and blow up multiple goyfs+balance if they pull ahead. It's a similar case for Dreadstill. It's obvious good against Dredge, though not the best, but still it's nice to be able to use such a versatile card. I bring it in against stax to take out chalices.
I've only played with it a couple times so far, so I'm still deciding if I want to keep playing it or not, but thus far I enjoy its versatility. I guess it just suits my play style.
Hah hah hah. That's what happens when I'm arguing on the internet for hours at a time, I stop paying attention to my vocabulary.
Let x = p(game 1 win)
Let y = p(game 2 win)
Where 0 < xy < x < 1
P(matchwin) = xy + xy(1-y) + (1-x)*y*y
= xy + xy - xyy - xyy + yy
= 2xy - 2xyy + yy
d/dx = 2y - 2yy (this is the increase in match win percentage with respect to an increase in winning the first game)
d/dy = 2x - 4xy + 2y (this is the increase in match win percentage with respect to an increase in winning sideboarded games)
Let (d/dy)/(d/dx) = (2x - 4xy + 2y) / (2y - 2yy) = f(x,y)
f(x,y) >= 2 for all x, y on the box interval [0,1],[0,1]. Observe some examples:
f(0.25, 0.25) = 2
f(0.5, 0.25) = 2.66666
f(0.75, 0.25) = 3.33333
f(0.25, 0.5) = 2
f(0.25, 0.75) = 3.333333
f(0.5, 0.5) = 2
f(0.5, 0.75) = 2.66666
f(0.75, 0.5) = 2
f(0.75, 0.75) = 2
Actually, YOU'RE not true. Any changes in win probability during the sideboarded games are double OR MORE as important as any changes in win probability for the first game.
This is true even though fewer than 2/3rds of the games are played with sideboards.
Something is wrong with your calculations Forbiddian.
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Nope.
Edit: Maybe I should elaborate. If you're too stupid to check the three lines of mathematics elementary calculus, then don't bother to post saying that I'm wrong because you got mindfucked.
What?? Calculus is not the correct tool here. Previous posters said that over half of games occur with sideboards involved. Considering a best-2-out-of-3 format, why are you bring math into this? And all of the math ignores that the opponent is sideboarding, too, so it isn't just a raw % increase. Seriously, your post and tone are confusing.
Yo, I just dropped a proof that sideboarded games are more than twice as important as non-sideboarded games.
If you just think about it in terms of raw # of games played instead of looking at the matchwin percentage, then you'll think, erroneously, that pre-boarded games are 2/3rds to 1/2 as important as boarded games (i.e. > 1/2 as important as boarded games), but they're actually less than half as important as boarded games to the overall match win %, even though they make up 1/2 to 2/3rds of the games played.
So another way to look at it: Even though you're playing less than twice as many sideboarded games as non-sideboarded games, the sideboarded games collectively contribute more than twice as much to determining who wins the match overall.
I'm sure there'll be some way to abuse that knowledge. Either practice sideboarded games more (barely anyone does this), practice boarding itself (very few people do this or really have a good grasp of what to board even in common MUs), or make changes to the maindeck and sideboard to perhaps sacrifice maindeck play in one matchup to increase your sideboarded play in another matchups.
But I responded generally to a post from a guy who was discounting the contribution of sideboarded games.
Yeah if i was ever going into a unknown metagame i would definitely run Grip. I just have a personally affinity for Ancient Grudge.
And like I've said, for the millionth time, an unanswered Jitte wins games straight up. It's that simple. I don't know why everyone wouldn't just run the card.
But anywho, i think the traps have potential for Zoo as an anti combo card. Teeg and Cannonist are often times too slow. And plus if you decide to keep a one lander, and combo hate, then you might get mana screwed. That's also happened to me too. Plus people don't run more than 4 copies of combo hate bears in their sideboard anymore.
It has potential.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
I actually wrote up a post for this exact sideboard:
I've seen it suggested several times now that Fireblast should come out against Ichorid, and I can't understand why. It's won me a lot of games in that matchup.
Anyway, I can try to fill in the missing decks in your list:
43 Lands
-3 Path to Exile
-2 Woolly Thoctar
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
+3 Price of Progress
+3 Krosan Grip/Vexing Shusher (assuming they board in Chalice)
Landstill
-4 Path to Exile (assuming they don't have Tarmogoyf)
-3 Fireblast (I'm not actually sure whether Fireblast or Chain Lighting is weaker here)
-1 Chain Lightning
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Plains (unless you suspect they will aggressively try to Crucible+Waste you)
+3 Price of Progress
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Choke
+2 Red Elemental Blast
Stax
-2 Woolly Thoctar
-1 Chain Lightning
-1 Lightning Bolt (Chain is obviously slightly weaker, but I think you want to leave some of them in to help grow Tarmogoyf)
-1 Fireblast
-1 Path to Exile
-1 Kird Ape
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
+3 Price of Progress
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Vexing Shusher
Rock
-1 Plains
-1 Kird Ape
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
+3 Price of Progress
Suicide variants
-3 Fireblast
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
A couple of these I had to come up with on the spot just now (namely Stax and Rock, which I have very rarely seen in tournaments), but I think my plans make sense. Let me know if you have any questions.
Oh, and please, if you want to sideboard graveyard hate, stay away from Relic of Progenitus. With Tarmogoyfs, Grim Lavamancers, and possibly Knights of the Reliquary, activating Relic's second ability is horrible for Zoo. We don't need any more sideboard cards against Threshold, anyway, and Tormod's Crypt is so much better in the matchups that we actually want graveyard hate for.
How is your matchup with dredge? I found I have nothing to SB agains it. I'm trying to fit something to the SB, but I can't decide what to take out.
It's not great. You have to hope that they have a substandard draw, or poor dredges. Sometimes, you can stall the engine by removing Putrid Imps, and you might catch them post-board with a REB on Breakthrough. Otherwise, it's a losing battle.
The good news is that when Ichorid does stumble, Zoo has the advantage of consistency. If they end up going DDD, it's anybody's game.
I wouldn't bother sideboarding for the matchup, unless you get paired against it in almost every tournament. Ichorid hate is just too narrow.
StP/PtE is a great way to handle Dredge (removes their Ichorid's so they have nothing to sac), and if you got Crypt's in the board, bring them in too. Not as bad of a matchup for Zoo as opposed to other decks, for a number of reasons (clock, guys that can die to destroy bridges, etc).
I have been trying zoo out, and so far the results are satisfying. My question is, how is everyones sideboard set-up for aggromatchups? I was told by someone that I shouldn't worry about dedicating much, if anything, to aggro in general in my sideboard, because I should be able to handle most of the decks as it is. Currently my sideboard is as such:
3 Magus of the Moon (I know questionable choice, but I currently run 9 fetches and 5 basics, and I have a sinking feeling that 43 land is very hard. Am I wrong?)
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Krosan Grip
3 Cannonist
3 Teeg
I've never had trouble beating 43land thanks to price of progress.
Alex thanks for the run down. I seem to side krosan grip in a lot more then suggested but I think there are little tweeks in my meta. Moats, Needles, things of that nature.
this will be a very helpful guide for sure, thanks again answered all my questions.
as a side note I lost to land twice, both times was because I never seen price in time.
Magus is TERRIBLE... teeg and canonist? thats alotta combo hate... read the previous few pages, you'll get all the answers you need. By the way, magus is TERRIBLE...
Also, 43land will just gamble for firebolt or flame jab to take care of magus and be back on their merry way to smash your face again. Price is seriously much more useful.
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