The combo is aimed to a deck with a SotF package. Resolving it without SotF is unlikely, of course; the combo is just an extra option when SotF is online.Originally Posted by Waikiki
The question is, the combo is worth its slots? It’s something different to Wonder/Rafiq. If resolved, the combo can GG very quickly: in this deck, it could be compared to NO/Progenitus. In other contexts, it could be compared to things like Stifle/Nought, Hexmage/Depths, Painter/Griondstone and so on.
The criteria of evaluation is how bad the combo pieces are by themselves in comparison to the advantage of a resolved combo. Are all these combos just overkill? Maybe; the point is that, in some cases, their speed can allow to win games that a few turns later could be lost.
Akroma/Retainers combo is interesting, if compared to other similar tricks, because, with a SotF package, it just requires two slots - not too much to shuffle away with the help of Brainstorm/Ponder.
The point, in conclusion, is to define the percentage of dead draws we can accept in exchange for the option to close the game quickly in the right matchups.
Is it 0% or more?
Like I said before, Its overkill. The cards do 0 on their own which is something I am trying to avoid. The deck needs to be less survival dependant.
Well, the Loyal Retainers itself is not entirely useless, as it can be used in a pinch to reanimate your Rafiq in the event it gets Snuffed or Bolted. But for that purpose I think I'd rather have Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, although the combo application of Loyal Retainers does have its allure.
im thinking retainers is better used as utility rather than a win con, what off color/high CC legends can be used as tech, for ex. something that wipes opponents permanents, or can be used as disruption/protection. i know there is a black legend that let you pay 1 life to give something -1/-1 as many times as you have life. that would allow us to survival up a one sided wog (for the most part).
Survival of the Fittest
Enchantment
, discard a creature card: Do whatever the fuck you want.
:D
I am pretty set with this outside of Spell Snare. I kind of want something better but I think it will be good enough.
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare (something better?)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rafiq
1 Squee
1 Wonder
SB
4 Path to Exile
3 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Meddling Mage
1 Rhox War Monk
3 Tormod's Crypt / Kitchen Finks / blah
The Loyal Retainer's thing seems interesting. I doubt I would ever run it since it is so Survival dependent. I mean, from the example a few posts back saying you win turn 4, if I get Hierarch and land a Surviva turn 2 and then continue to hit my land drops, I win anyway. The only reason I could see running it would be for utility, not just to beat down with Akroma.
True story. It's the same reasoning why things like Oriss aren't run; with Survival active, cute combos like this are just win-more quite a bit of the time.
I've been back and forth with Spell Pierce and Spell Snare. Pierce I like because you can snag things like Aether Vial, Stifle, and FoW early on, but with the drawback of not hitting creatures, which is actually a pretty big deal sometimes.
How are you liking Vendilion Clique and Witness in the MD? I'm currently running Ponder and really enjoy the level of fixing it gives me, but every once in a while I feel like it doesn't do quite enough to play it over another creature.
The only problem with Spell Pierce main is that it can't hit Pridemage, Goyf, Bob, etc. It also handles things that are most threatening to the deck like Hymn, Sinkhole, DD, Jitte, etc. Still needs testing.
I love Cliques and Witness. Like I would never cut them. Flash is amazing. In response to Standstill, as a blocker, eot ftw, or after they draw their card to take the Wrath from their hand. Witness is insurance and I would really not run the deck with out her. It won't rear the deck apart but you miss those plays of getting your Rafiq back, getting the Sword back, getting your Survival back, or getting that FoW back to put the game away.
I placed 2nd in a dutch online tournament with a very outdated list.
Matches:
CB Top 2-0
Faeries 2-0
Merfolk 1-2
Rock 2-0
Noshow2-0
Elves 2-0
Goyfsligh 2-1
Then loose in the finals from UGB CB top running 3 needle 3 pulse 3 deed and grips on side. Also the mainboard is very anti survival. I lost 1-2 But 3rd round mull to 5 (4 land) I did manage to make it very very close (him on 4)
@Jak, Im able to get the land down low to 18 because of the ponders so I wont get screwed once in a while. You replace them with 3drops. Hasn't this been an issue for you?
If you dont like spell snares, I'd suggest running spell pierce/ mongoose or quirion ranger + ponders
Concerning overkill and winmore stuff, I've started to consider even Rafiq to feel winmore. I have been a huge fan in the past, but my strategy has changed a little bit.
Now, once I have landed a primary beater (clique, Goyf or Monk with Wonder) I start to play reactively with sprites. As long as my opponent does not play a flyer or something else that will have a huge impact, i basicaly ignore it and just go squee -> spellstutter sprite every turn to counter removal on my beater.
Tapping out for 4 mana to play Rafiq fits really badly in this gameplan, and I find myself never wanting to play him anymore.
Are you guys still in favor for Rafiq? I'm considering playing a single nimble mongoose instead, since I've been missing the little guy from threshold builds.
I agree with Jak here, Clique is awesomeness, and even though Witness is not quite as awesome, I don't dare remove her from the list. It just feels safe to know she is in there when I get in trouble.
Concerning Ponder, I think you reason a little bit strange on this one. Whenever you desperately need a creature, drawing a ponder gives you 3 chances to draw into one, or more, it's never dead. Whenever you are in topdeck mode, Brainstorm and Ponder are really important because of this. Ponder is also great for manafixing in the first 2 turns, especially if you run a lot of basics like I do.
EDIT: Sorry, when I read my post it sounds like I think you're a total moron, that was not my intention. Of course you already know all of this =)
Interesting i was first against Rafiq, but after testing him i a tournament, i don't wanna miss him anymore, he won me so many games. I think Rafiq isn't win more, if you lay him down, he says : answer me or you will loose !!!
But perhaps that depends on the personal playstyle and on the opponents deck. I often get him eot sometimes with wonder, and if my opponent is tapped out....
At next i will test Kira, because most of the time i use my sprites for removal, i'am going to cut sprites down to 3 and add 1 kira..
I had this in my mind a while back. then realized from a losing situation rafiq can swing the game in your favor very often.
I think Waikiki hit it, with just 1 phrase, where i needed a lot more
@Waikiki : congratz on the finish !!!
Can you define "swing the game"?
If you mean you're on low life total against an aggro deck (or similar) i guess you refer to the lifegain punch a war monk gives? In this case, Isn't the war monk the creature that's really important?
I have had those situations as well, but when I tap out to play Rafiq, there comes the removal on monk in response to exalted triggers. I feel it's a false safety net that most often backfires, to the degree I don't dare play him anymore. Kira could help though, never tried that.
Vs Merfolk I had just a war monk online and He had some lords and was kicking my ass. I topdecked rafiq and swung for 8 lifegain a turn.
my opponent wins the dmg race even with survival out. I swing for lethal thnx to rafiq overpowering my goyf.
Etc.
I think you may have misinterpreted me somewhat.
I run 20 creatures in my build, but in the slot where Jak runs Eternal Witness and V Clique, I run Ponders, which are fantastic for me, but every once in a while I feel like they should be Eternal Witness or V Clique, not just any old creature. The problem for me is I would love to have those specific creatures in my build, but I don't dare cut any of the other creatures for them, and Ponder is the only flexible slot that I have if I were to try and squeeze them in.
I do run Clique in my Sideboard, so that helps a bit, but I really can't find room at all for Witness.
My list is similar to Waikiki's, for reference.
I have been getting flooded when I was running 19 or 20 lands so working with 18 so far has been alright. I probably need to fetch a Noble Hierarch now and then whereas you may not need to, but it allows me to fit in everything I want and sometimes need into the deck.
Ponder is debatable. I kind of want to trim stuff like War Monks or something down, but I have been loving having three. I guess in my meta where there is a lot of aggro, having a more defined list against them is better for me.
I love Spell Snares but they are definitely meta dependent. Mine is a cluster fuck of jank and then sometimes really good decks so it is bad and good sometimes. I'd rather hit stuff like Confidant, Pridemage, and Goyf though. I'll take my chances of playing against a deck who's curve starts at 4.
If Spell Snares end up being terrible for me in my meta, I'll probably add 2 Ponders and a Sower (Gilded Drake?) or something.
Edit- Oh and Rafiq is pretty awesome. Winning games out of no where is a good thing and definitely not win more.
I might try adding a single Taiga, since now all my fetches can grab, for Anger, which would probably make take the place of Rafiq. I doubt I'll stick with it but haste makes War Monks, Trygon, etc much better and has that out of no where win like Rafiq, except now you don't already need a creature on the board, you don't, need to pay 4 mana, etc. It's worth looking at.
Has anybody ever considere Azorius Guildmage for the SB? Tap down opposing Goyfs, Dreadnoughts, Tombstalkers etc...... AND a Stifle on legs.
Anger is entirely useless without survival. Drawing it in the first few turns suck, and it makes a lot more hands unkeepable. For the elves deck, getting awkward hands with anger and squee was the motivating reason to try a Survival-less build.
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