About Goyf and "wasting" counters, how could you generalize such a thing?@Deadlock i understand your arguments for UGR but since i play both lists about a bit more than a year now (90% tournament experience) where i've learned that UR plays the control strategy better because everytime we drop a Tarmogoyf we have/want to protect it so even if it catches 2 hate spells which could have targeted the dreadnought normally without countertop in action we also waste 1-2 counters to protect it (not on every case but most of the situations i want to keep goofy).
It depends on your hand and the gamestate obviously, but the given you have Stifle and Nought in hand and the circumstances allow you to go for Nought, you DONT have to protect Goyf, he's just there to trade 1 for 1 - a simple term of leverage. Thats the good thing about him, you wont fall behind in terms of ca if he gets removed and if he sticks, well..
You cant say the Ur has a better way of abusing Crucible with one additional Mishras. If i expect the mirror and Landstill i happily put two Crucible in my Ugr board.
I am not convinced by Rushing River in your maindeck, i see that it is good in tempo decks like Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and while Dreadstill can play the tempo game, it can also play other roles (in which Rushing River is not that good).
Definitly cut a Standstill and add a CB!
Also think about some GY hate in your board, about Hibernation - isnt it a bit narrow? Eg it does nothing against Stax (Trini), Rood played Echoing Truth for that purpose.
BBB
rood now plays wipe away or he should i conviced him i think lolOriginally Posted by deadlock
Ah i posted some references why i don't play any graveyard hate anymore but for the other reasons i think it depends on playstyle, i also had the situations where i dropped the goofy as i knew it saved the way for the dreadnought but i don't like the goofy for this role as some more counters seemed to be much more significant to me. Hibernation looks bad maybe same for Rushing river but as i played both on some games yet i dont wanna cut them anymore, i just still look forward to find a faster win condition instead of the morphling as i don't want to rely und the heave mana drops it needs (even if as it worked all the time) i just dont want to splash only to get a good creature beside dreadnought.
So Ive been playing zoo for almost a year now, and decided I want to mix things up a bit. I own all the cards in this deck except for one volcanic island and I like 12/12 tramplers and force of will as much as the next guy, so I'm gonna try my hand at this deck for a while. (tbh I'm also sock of playing a DTB and having people gunning for me) I like this deck since it's a little more underplayed compared to a year ago. K grip is still all over, but it could be worse.
I looked at various Ur lists posted in the thread and came up with the following:
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
3 SDT
2 EE
1 Crucible
Sb:
3 Submerge
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Firespout
1 Capsize
2 REB
1 Spell Pierce
2 Shattering Spree
I don't think there's anything terribly new here. Has anyone else played Vendilion Clique in here before and if so, how did you feel about it? I put it in sin e it's a versatile card and can serve as a pretty quick evasive clock when I can't get a nought to stick, but I'm curious to hear if anybody else likes it.
I put in an academy ruins, but that may prove unecessary and I could see cutting it.
You WANT 2 trickbind in a Ur list, Academy... not so sure, could be good, but you want to minimize non-blue sources, so it would probably be better as 4th Factory... pretty important to this deck
May I also suggest splitting up your fetch's, a la J.V. said awhile back you get fucked by pithing needle, some decks run them MB more and more, and well, It happened to me, and you pretty much get rocked after that... I would play something like 2 delta, 1 strand, 1 tarn, 1 misty, and a R/x one (maybe not) but yeah split that shit up
Also, prolly want 3 mage's, it's pretty Important in Ur...
It's a pretty fun deck... I personally ended up liking the UGr a little more, goyf is an absurd Monster in this deck... I tried the clique for a week, not sure how I feel about it, I would play 4 mage's over 2 clique's, mage is so much stronger in the deck I feel and the clique ability is nice and all, butya know?
cool man, hope you like it, it's fun, takes a little getting use to (especially coming from Zoo) but it's a blast
*EDIT* just realized you not playing standstill... you crazy dude? You NEED NEED that card in the deck to recover from the 2fr1... it's usually gg after a resolved standstill... it's a necessity, look through rood's/J.V.'s posts... they pretty much know the deck the best out of everyone (i think they invented it??) it's almost against the law not to play standstill.
This.*EDIT* just realized you not playing standstill... you crazy dude? You NEED NEED that card in the deck to recover from the 2fr1... it's usually gg after a resolved standstill... it's a necessity,...[blah blah blah irrelevant stuff]... it's almost against the law not to play standstill.
Edit: I just counted your deck and it's only 56 so I'm going to guess the other 4 Cards are standstill...
Anyways I do like the Cliques, I've tested them in Ur and they are pretty nutty. A few things though, I would add another land, you want to be up around 5-6 lands every game minimum especially with the Crucible... I'd probably cut a Clique for another fetchland. Also Academy Ruins just doesn't do it for me, I've tested it so many times, sure there are games where you draw it and it's nuts, but 8/10 games it is better as Factory #4. One other thing, your sideboard has some well questionable cards... The Capsize and 2 Shattering Sprees should probably be A pair of Blood Moons and a Wipe Away.
One other thing to consider is possibly playing a Tropical Island over an Island, this allows you to be able to Firespout the Air and it makes Engineered Explosives much Stronger.
Team Hammafist
What do you think of this mana base for UGr :
(21 sources - 8 Fetch)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
and for ref the JV mana base :
(21 sources - 5 Fetch)
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
Forest isn't necessary unless there is a metric shit-ton of tempo thresh in your meta (even so not so much). if you're playing non-blue sources, they've gotta count for something (ie. factory's bash fasce, waste screws opponent). Also see my above post regarding splitting up your fetch's among delta/strand/tarn/misty... pithing needle is NO JOKE, many decks are rocking it in the main, they will hit your fetch lands = sKarewed! also 8 fetch's is a whole lot, 6 be perfect... just my 2 cents gentlemen...
Yea we can change the fetches since zendicar but basics aren't that impressive. For 2 Trickbind on UR i disagree but its your choice. I also thought about a tropical in my UR list, but what to cut?
3 Flooded
3 Delta
3 Volcanic (i need the 3 as i play a lot of red in my list)
5 island
4 factory
3 wasteland
I think the fourth factory could be cut as i normally only use one of them due attacking and as i play crucible i can recover them.
In that case, I would cut an Island so you have the same number of blue sources, I would also stick with 3 volcanic island... but like J.V. said, trop is a good idea explosives for 3
If you feel like you are short on blue sources in testing try it out in the factory slot, with the crucible MD it would probably work out... just try both out anyway, compare them, see what 'feels' best to you, the way you play... I mean that's the only way to know for sure... even if I, or J.V. or whoever likes it one way (2 trickbind for instance) you might like it better another way.
True, true...
I think i cut a factory as i normally often feel like drawing to many of them and would like more U sources.
As my UR list is a bit different (1 EE) i am not sure if the tropical is worse the slot at all here.
Also i run Blood Moons so i won't cut 5 to 4 Islands.
auto correct on iPhone sucks, I'll fix this post when I get home.
Sorry, the list I posted was only 56 cards and the last 4 are supposed to be standstills.
Thanks for the feed back! I'll cut the ruins for a 4th factory, but I do not have any blue duals besides volcanics. I could throw in a rav dual until I got one, but that seems sketchy to me.
Could someone explain why I should run 2 trickbind? Between top bs and shuffle effects I don't feel like I have trouble getting a stifle when I need one. But maybe I'll find with testing that I do.
The reason I put v.clique in the deck is because I wanted to have a legitimate second creature threat but don't want to put in green. Clique at least disrupts my opponent and beats for 3 in the air and pitches to force. Plus it's a 3drop for cbalance, which this deck doesn't have a lot of.
Those are the only 5 U fetches I own currently, but I'll try to mix it up over time. (I used to play uw tron in ext.)
I couldn't find my wipe aways at home but I intend to find them. I don't currently have any blood moons but I'll pick some up. Which matchups are they for?Cbtop landstill and 43land? Just seems like they hinder us as much as most opponents.
While I'm asking, what are our common matchups and sb strats like with this deck? Which matchups do we dread, and which ones do we fist pump about getting to play? And since I know I'll be loaning out my zoo deck while I play this deck, how is that matchup for us? :P it seems pretty tough, but I guess it could be pretty easy of we have t2 nought and they don't have enough w removal to kill It through counters.
Thanks for answering all my questions. I'm pretty excited to play this deck soon!
Got home edit;
So this is the list I'm gonna try for my next tournament;
5 Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Trickbind
3 Trinket Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Stifle
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
SB:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Shattering Spree
1 Wipe Away
2 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Firespout
3 Lightning Bolt
Now, I'm very curious about what our SB Strats are... I'm sitting here trying to practice sideboarding and I'm having trouble with it.I also think I'm gonna ditch the submerges, they don't seem so useful as I thought they'd be. I'm open for suggestions to replace them. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of blood moon though, I just don't think it seems worthwhile when it shuts down so much of my deck too. I like Factory too much.
Edit 2:Already ditched the submerges. Replaced them with the sprees again and a second spell pierce. I'll see how that goes. I just don't like having no artifact answers on my sb.
Last edited by hungryLIKEALION; 10-30-2009 at 01:28 AM. Reason: Got home.
Hi as you got a Message for the Sideboard, i'd play 4 daze on the UR list maybe cut a standstill for it as 3 seem to be good enough.
I've never liked playing 4 daze in a deck,especially one that likes to make landdrops like this one. I'd rather run a fourth snare if you think I need more counters. Or even a 4th top. I can never draw enough tops. But still I think I like having four standstill, at least for now. I'll fiddle around with my numbers over the next couple weeks. I'll be playing this at a tournament on the 15th. I have a larger tournament on the 29th which I could play this or zoo at, I'll probably choose based on the metagame. Of there's much combo I'll probably play this, although I may have to give this to my brother since he probably won't have his own deck to play and I'm a lot better with zoo than he is. Either way I'll let you guys know how those go.
so pick up the 4 spell snare as card #61 as its so good as long as we don't run goofy. 4 Tops are probably to much on this list, on normal baseruption/countertop decks they are needed but beside standstills 2-3 are enough.
/edit
Hi i had some nice testgames with a friend today i played against ugw countertop, ubw landstill, affinity (not completed list), can treashold and merfolk. I'am pretty sure that the list i run on the next tournament will look like this:
4 Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
4 Counterbalance
3 D. Top
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Standstill
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Mishras factory
3 wasteland
5 Island
1 Tropical Island
3 Volcanics
Sideboard:
3 Firespout
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Pyroblast
2 Blood Moon
1 Rushing River
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Tormod's crypt
I really feel good with this list, with the additional tutor in the sideboard i can reach every option i want to draw post board, i also found space placing 2 crypts hoping bolts,spouts,explosives,crypts will help against dredge next time ^^ (they won't)
Last edited by Tangle.Wire; 10-30-2009 at 04:00 PM.
do you have a new version of the Ugr J.V. with Zen.
think this version is optimal.
++
I've split up my fetches 2/1/1/1 U fetches and my sideboard is:
-1 Lightning Bolt
-1 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Submerge
+2 Sower of Temptation
The Landstill siding is the same.
I've also fiddled around with -1 Phyrexian Dreadnought, -1 Trickbind +2 Daze since a lot of players don't really play around Daze since Dreadstill only playing two is kind of old news now.
Team Hammafist
okay, humm only 2 Phyrexian Dreadnought is soft ;-) for Ugr i think,
with metagame full of quasali, swords, edict, krosan
12/12 is very fragile, so 3x is more comfortable
for the 2x sower in SB yes but 2x control magic is so good :-) and not responsive of the hate creature
but i now test your proposal Thanks !
Why sower's? i always feld like stronger with control magics, do u only play submerge in the sideboard? 3-4 Daze was pretty strong last time i played the UGR list.
@Deadlock i understand your arguments for UGR but since i play both lists about a bit more than a year now (90% tournament experience) where i've learned that UR plays the control strategy better because everytime we drop a Tarmogoyf we have/want to protect it so even if it catches 2 hate spells which could have targeted the dreadnought normally without countertop in action we also waste 1-2 counters to protect it (not on every case but most of the situations i want to keep goofy).
The 2 Senseis top which are definitly a problem i personally had too when i started up with the list gets fixed very well by following changes:
- 1 Trinket
- 1 Explosives
+ 1 Top
+ 1 Rushing River
As i first only cut the mage for the 3rd top i found out that i normally only drop EE once a game so with 4 brainstorm 3 top 4 standstill it wouldn't be a problem getting the one or one of the 2 left trinkets. Also i often had the problem that EE wasn't fast enough for random situations so i took the Rushing River to the list keeping 1 EE left for the mages. (I actually run a mystical tutor in the sideboard now so the 1 river is not that random as we want to count on it in some situations.
Also the UR control plan gets very good support by crucible of worlds and blood moons (as you run them) as they can knock down difficult matchups better than the goofy imo and they also can win games even if its not on the direct hit like goofies.
I feel like running the UGR build on the US Aggro/Zoo matchups is definitly not the wrong way but otherwise in europe there are a lot af landstill/countertop or other controlling decks so i really liked the UR list much more as it has a bit more resistance against other disruption.
As i missed the last 3 tournaments here i wanted to discuss 2-3 Slots on my current UR build as i really don't feel 100% fine with it, -1 Standstill +1 Counterbalance or just keep 4 Standstill? (i think i like the Standstill more but it gets boarded out in so many games and i never feld bad about drawing a counterbalance but 4 standstill serve drawing a counterbalance...and so on)
List:
4 Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
3 Counterbalance
3 S. Divining Top
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Trickbind
1 Rushing River
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
5 Island
3 Polluted Delta (i actually don't have the U/R fetches^^)
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's factory
3 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
Sideboard:
2 Hibernation
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Firespout
3 Pyroblast
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Blood Moon
1 Morphling
ps: Yes it's a Morphling, since the first days i play Stifle/Dreadnought on any kind i sometimes placed it in the sideboard and really won games with it.
As the U/R list has no really other win conditions than dreadnought (i don't count on factories almost if i boarded the blood moons).
I'am sure Blood moon and Morphling seem to be irritating but on every test game i had blood moon and standstills stalled the game till i hade 6-7 lands and i always had the UU to protect it. also the blood moon shuts down around 16 lands of the deck so morphling will use it paired to divining top.
I actually never had any agreements to that card on this list but on tournaments a lot of Landstill/Rock/Baseruption players wouldn't believe that they just lost to a morphling in a dreadstill deck which shows once again that typing decklists and playing decklists are two different things.
-> If anyone reads this till here, thanks for the time
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