I use 2 Figures in my build too. I find him to really help give the deck some late game omph. an 8/8 trumps most other 5/5 range flyers, I mean hell, he will even take down a simian sky swallower for you. So I might actually up the number to 3 some time we will see. Although overall I find Lavamancer a more useful utility creature for 1 in general. But as far as you guys saying drop the rift bolts I think this is a pretty bad idea. This decks curve is at 1 essentially which means its vulnerable to COV and sensei/balance. Anything you can do to circumvent this will help you in those match ups. For this reason I recommend packing K grips in the side and using rift bolt main as a neat trick to circumvent COV=1 and have a slightly better chance with a balance out.Originally Posted by Gibsonmac
Has anyone tried Loxodon Hierarch? Hes a solid topdeck IMHO. Feedbacks please?
Sure he's a solid topdeck but he gums up your hand early (Even more so than knight and thoctar) and since our deck is already extremely susceptible to wasteland and stifle getting to four mana to play him in a timely fashion is extremely ambitious. You're really much better off playing Thoctar or Knight; Either of those will be bigger, and they're far easier to cast.
+1, not a good card in this deck, although it does depend on what you see on a regular basis, possible sideboard spot if you don't see much tempo thresh/dreadstill etc.
You really want to save sideboard space for things better than big dumb beaters...
Again, +1...
Yeah. If you feel like you need lifegain for some reason just play lightning helix (i argue that you should already be doing so with how prevalent mirrors have become) and extra jittes.
That's a good point about Helix Lion, but would you be willing to jump to 2 cc just for the lifegain? Over other 1 cc burn spells? Or are you saying as a sideboard option?
Some more thoughts on Cursed Scroll.
This is not a bad card in the right format. It was good when it was legal in Extended and saw some play in the early years of Legacy. It's strength was that it could help push though those final points of damage at the end of a game when the deck had otherwise run out of gas. You might get your opponent down to 3-5 life and then use a repeated scroll to finish.
I think the main reason why Cursed Scroll is not so good for today's Legacy is that so many good cards have been printed in the past 2-3 years. We've got all kinds of improved creatures that put the opponent on a shorter clock. Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf are the obvious staples, but there are many other cards than are better than most zoo creatures from a few years ago (Landfall creatures, Goblin Guide, Figure of Destiny, Woolly Thoctar, Knight of the Reliquary, etc.) The bottom line is that zoo is much faster today than it was a few years ago. It wins a turn earlier and is less likely to run out of gas. Therefore, the function that Cursed Scroll used to play is no longer needed. I actually played the card for years, but I found myself wishing it was a burn spell or creature toward the end and eventually dropped it.
Another thing that weakens Cursed Scroll is the printing of all the new tribal lords. Scroll is normally excellent against tribal decks, but todays decks (particularly Merfolk and Elves) run 10-12 lords. Scroll then cannot kill one of them by itself if more than one lord is on the board.
Ultimately, I think Cursed Scroll has run its course as a good choice for Legacy.
If I recall, he plays them main (he has a slightly different take on zoo than I do) I would probably do Helix in the side board if you really found it to be necessary, but I really do not find the need for excess lifegain atm. I do not like the card in the deck, at least not in my personal brand of Zoo, it really depends on what the rest of your deck is like, as to whether or not the card has merit, which is (or should be) highly dependent on what your own local meta looks like (your decklist that is).
The one card I do not believe has a home in Zoo at this point is Figure, not as a set anyways... I do agree, that as a random 1-of, he can do some pretty dumb stuff to the opponent, but the occasion is so rare that... well you know...
At this point, I believe the way you beat the field with this deck, the mirrors especially, is to have the most consistent, stream-lined, most efficient build conceivable, every card has to earn its spot, and every card needs to be a real threat... I am not proposing going goyf sligh in any way at all, we cannot lose versatility and staying power... Rather, that our burn needs to be the most efficient available (truly efficient, not what passes for it in RDW or sligh) our creatures need to be the most efficient available, and right when played, not 4 turns later possibly, maybe, sorta if we get surplus land floods... which brings me to KotR v. Thoctar... to me it is still unknown at this point which is correct, both, neither, it really depends on play style, obviously Thoctar will most times be bigger that knight right of the bat, which goes with the philosophy of success, however the synergy of knight/fetch/lavamancer is staying power and versatility (synergy meant by knight putting things in the yard for lavamancer to consume, which believe it or not, and contrary to the 'anti-synergistic' on-the-hole appearance of said combo, is truly powerful in many situations).... So in the event that one would like to play neither KotR or Thoctar, perhaps that is where figure will find a home as a 2-of... I'm not to that point, I like both Kight and Thoctar, and switch hit them according to the occasion...
Whatchyall Thinkin??
I'm trying out 1 figure in place of the 4th kird ape I'm running. While I'm not sure if I'll like it yet or not, I like the idea at least right now, to give me a little extra later-game oomph, but not really significantly hindering me.
Personally, I believe there are only two playable 1cc burn spells; Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning. Obviously Bolt is an auto 4 of. Chain is very good, but not absolutely neccesary. Zoo usually wants to have at least an eight pack of burn spells. When Chain Lightning is not present, Lightning Helix almost assuredly is. However, there is easily room in the deck for 12 burn spells. Right now I'm running 9 burn spells, 4 bolt, 4 helix, 1 chain. As I acquire more chain lightnings I'll probably add them in place of other non-burn spells. (For example, I intend to cut my reckless charges for them.) I don't play fireblast, so the chains will basically be sliding into those slots.
Point is, if you don't want to cut a 1cc burn spell for helix, you don't have to. If you really like fireblast and the 1cc burn package, then power to you. However, I have had a great many experiences with Lightning Helix where it has proved its worth to me. It's great for the mirror, can be used to trick decks like dredge or occasionally storm where you pull yourself out of lethal range via lifegain, it more or less cantrips with library in play, and it's instant speed; These are all very useful traits for a spell to have. Plus, it dodges chalice@1.
But yeah, I would never say Helix in the sideboard. Play it main if you're gonna play it. If you need the lifegain, I say yes, the 2cc is worth it. It's a great spell.
yeah I've offered that advice to people hellbent on playing figure, they liked it I believe, although as l said, it really depends what you play against regularly, and what kind of player you are... ie. do you play in weekly/semi-weekly FNM-type legacy events, or scg 5k's, or monstrous euro tourneys... each answer would have a different response as to what I'd advise going into a list, and which cards theoretically would, or would not, work in the deck... taking meta's for each into account of course.
the 3cc slot might be a home for figure in the future, can be played more consistently, and you really have to think of him being a 3cc+ dude anyway due to mana investment, who can come down early, so if one was dead set on running figure, that would be the place to start... personally I prefer Knight/thoctar still, but there may come a day when I might be looking to try something like this out.
Hey, what is your build looking like these days, how have tourney results been for you as of late... what was your reasoning for not running fireblast again?
Hello,
I've saw the Rubin Zoo by Brian Kibler in PT Austin and I thought you can play this build in Legacy, too. The combo consists between Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnwillows.
First of all I saw 3 Baneslayer Angel. Baneslayer Angel is a amazing card but not in 1.5. It's tooo expensive. I think this build is somethink like an midrange deck which consits of a little bit Burn with the best threats. Here is my list:
Creature:
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Meddling Mage
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
Instant:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares
Land:
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
1 Plateau
1 Tundra
-> I play the best critters in 1.5. Rhox War Monk, Knight of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf is the midrange beatdown plan. Qasali Pridemage and Meddling Mage is a little bit hate against Countertop and other builds (but I'm not sure with Meddling Mage, maybe better in the board). Noble Hierarch is for our speed. It's important to get our Rhox War Monk in Turn 3 because this makes difference between other Zoo and Midrange decks and Aggro-Control decks.
Furthermore we play 4 color and he fix our mana with the right colors.
But we won't see 2, that's the reason why I play 3. Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Punishing Fire (Combo) and StoP is our Removal for other threats.
I think 6 cc3 drops are enough because 4 KotR is a little bit to chunky.
Wild Nacatl is our second one drop. It gives our deck the aggro part.
Fireblast isn't good in this build because we don't have the manabase to sacrifice two Mountains. Price of Progress is amazing but not in this build with 12 nonbasic lands.
Now what do you think about this kind of midrange-aggro build?
Zoo<3
In the format and development forum, there's a SCD discussion about the burnwillows/punishing fire combo. The consensus was that, while it was useful against aggro decks in extended (allowing the deck to take the control stance more naturally), the same isn't true in legacy. Zoo, the standard in aggro, has only a handful of creatures with toughness of two or less.
Well, I haven't Played the deck at a tournament in a few weeks. But my list (and the list I intend to run at the end of this month in the mox tournament) looks like this;
4x nacatl
4x goyf
4x pridemage
3x lavamancer
2x kird ape (intending to test steppe lynx here)
2x figure
2x knight
4x bolt
4x helix
4x path
2x chain
2x library
1x jitte
1x vines of vastwood/reckless charge
4x windswept Heath
3x wooded foothills
3x arid mesa
3x plateau
2x taiga
2x savannah
1x plains
1x forest
1x mountain
1x horizon canopy
that's my current 'safe' list. There are some cards I intend to test, like a singleton barbarian ring, but that's for another time.
I've gotten first or split the finals of every legacy tournament I've played in the last 5 months except one, where I lost to dredge in the semis, so my results have been good. I'm playing in a mox tournament the 29th that's looking like it'll be pretty large, so I'm basically just preparing for that.
I dot play fireblast because it's usually going to be dead whenever the opponent is at more than 4 life. Sacking two mountains is too large a cost to be used for removal in the early or mid game, so I'd rather replace it with chains or something else that can be used to kill opposing creatures.
I split top 4 at a 25 man tourney tonight with my standard Zoo list. I'll write a report tomorrow bc i gotta get to sleep.
Still raping since Xmas08' LOLOLOL
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Here is my list. It's not really mine, more generic than anything, but i figured Lavamancer and Library were worth testing more. We lost our 4th Foothills and my Arid Mesas are in my Standard deck which a friend is borrowing.
Maindeck
4x Windswept Heath
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
2x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Mountain
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kird Ape
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Woolly Thoctar
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
3x Chain Lightning
4x PTE
2x Sylvan Library
Sideboard
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Vexing Shusher
3x Choke
2x Swords to Plowshares
3x Krosan Grip
3x Price of Progress
It's a basic solid list with all the right 4ofs. No cute spells just the usual. The sideboard wasn't tuned to my personal preference because i was really tired and wanted to beat face. I love STP in the board, but i missed Jitte in the maindeck. Such an amazing card; i can't wait to get mine from Columbus.
Round 1 i was faced against kabal with Canadian Thresh.
Game one he had an answer to everything i played, and we both exhausted our hands, we got into topdeck mode and he has Ponder, BS, etc so he filtered better. I landed Lavamancer with him at 1 and activated to run into a Stifle. I lost that game.
Game two i started out slow keeping a mana heavy hand, which turned out well. We both exhausted each other's resources again and then went into topdeck mode, but i landed Sylvan Library and kept drawing all the burn i needed to race him
Game 3 I just kept drawing more 2/3s and 3/3s than he had Bolts for. He mana denied me for a bit but i topdecked lands like a champ, then Library with open fetches in play. Close games.
Round 2 i faced whienot with his UBwr fairie concoction.
Game one he didn't draw any colored land do to running too man Muta/Wastes, and i just overran him without much effort.
Game two i kept a Goyf Goyf Goyf Mancer Mancer 2 land hand. My first land was stifled. I fetched a basic, then had my other land i drew Wasted. But i drew into more lands and landed 3 Goyfs plus i drew into my other 2 Mancers against fairies. Plus once again he drew crap on the land side and was sitting on double Muta Tundra again.
Round 3 i played the mirror. His build was the cute version with Steppe Lynx and Bloodbraid Elf.
Game one i get molested as he drops triple Nacatl double Ape and i draw 5 lands.
Game two Jitte comes in and i land it and just grind him out. He cascades into KOTR which i path. It's over after that.
Game three happened just like game two. Jitte landed.
I draw into top 8 and play against thor with Merfolk, and we share a cardpool, so he gives me the win for my rating. Sylvan Library is amazing against control and not too hot vs anything else. I saw myself boarding out those and Thoctar alot. Half my meta included Wasteland so Thoctar just had to go for a few games. The deck is solid, but like i said i just miss Jitte in the maindeck. It's so powerful and it lets you come back from losing situations if it sticks.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Gratz on the finish. I saw you run no canopies. Do you not like them? Even in builds with thoctar I usually like to have one or two.
I was going to comment on no md jitte since I know how much you love that card but I see you already spoke about it.
You didn't find 4 mancers to be too many? I usually run 3 and whenever I run 4 I feel like I end up with multiples too often.
I agree with your analysis of library, but I still like it against anything that plays wasteland since it helps me draw out of mana screw. Sometimes I side one out in the mirror, but not always. Do you side them out for the mirror?
How do you generally feel about this deck's thresh matchup? I've lost to it very few times, but I keep seeing people say it's a bad mu for us? I'm just curious to your thoughts since you've probably played the matchup a lot I assume.
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