Infiltrator is a little on the slow side... but the ability of being able to grab any of your powerful cards is well worth it... Its 3 mana... uncounterable (aside from stifle).... what else could you want?
Obviously you want cantrips, but in my list, you have 8 cantrips already (DIF played 8 in his Ugw list for a long time)... Having the ability to tutor is just the next best thing though... why waste turns playing ponders into nothing, when you can get the card right now?
Obviously, infiltrator cannot seek out lands like cantrips can, but that's why i incorperated a few more lands (also allowing the use of survival in the list).
And it is a good card to draw into, as it sets up one of your most powerful spells for the next turn (i guess i am beating a dead horse here... but uncounterable tutor!)...
Plus, being blue has advantages to the list (Fow) and being a creature is also an advantage to the list (survival once you've tutored for what you want)...
The card seems slow, but please don't just knock it before you try it, that happens too often on this site, and it keeps the format from progressing as it should... What people should do is test these crazy ideas, because once in a while someone will have found something extremely off the radar that is pretty damned good.
You forgot the main fact; cc3 at sorcery speed, thats not impressive and in some matchups impossible to cast.
Ponder only costs 1 mana we can afford that at sorceryspeed.
Every DTB forum update is simply shuffling around the same ten decks.
Why do you want a tutor in a deck with 7-8 Fetches, 6-8 Cantrips and 4 Tops?
Ok, I understand your build is different, and I'm real happy for you and I'll let you finish... oh wait, let's not turn this into some Kanye thing...
What I meant to say, in your build you already run 2 Survivals. Why spend more slots on bad tutors that can double as lousy creatures?
I understand all the pros you name and I respect them. Really, I do. But the bottom line is, and here's a reality-check, the card stinks. I never needed a tutor in CounterTop because I have enough ways to manipulate my library. I certainly don't want a tutor costing 3 mana. So your opponent can't counter it. So what? He'll just counter the Goyf I got, which won't come as a surprize next turn, I can tell you. Next to that, if you need a creature then and there, this is one heck of a shitty creature to drop. Just to underline here: the fact that this tutor is uncounterable really doesn't matter.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
This is the list i've been using in my meta that have lots of agroo with good results.
It's control oriented but having in mind that Vedalken Shakles and Sower of Temptation don't work well in current meta full of burn and arti/enc hate. This is my try of evoluting CounterTop. I got Hanni idea of Wog + Elspeth and tried to adapt it to my playstile. This is the resulting list:
Things i dont like about it: Too low blue card count, double white costs. Any suggestions and improvements welcome.
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Savanah
4 Tarmo
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Elspeth
2 EE
2 Wing Shards
4 StoP
4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
4 CB
4 Top
4 BS
2 Ponder
SB
2 WoG -> (Also tryed Day of Judgement with Knight of the Holy Nimbus but it proved subpar)
2 Kitchen Finks (Better than RWM with WoG and vs REB)
2 Path to Exile
2 Trygon Predator -> vs mirror and stax
2 Krosan Grip -> vs mirror and stax
2 Pithing Needle
3 Spell Pierce
Cards explanations:
Knight of the Reliquary: Acts as Tarmo 5-6 and allows me to search for Academy Ruins lategame.
Elspeth: Sometimes is broken, sometimes is just good. Works good with the great amount of removal.
Wing Shards: (Card Description: Instant - Target players sacrifices an attacking creature. Storm)
Is eating Progenitus and 20/20 lands all day. Its easy to clean all the board vs bad agroo players. Its also good vs Mongoose but its too hard to cast vs Thresh.
SB:
Countertop is very hated nowadays. People usually board in Krosan Grips and some number of REB. So i usually board out CB.
vs Zoo/Gobos: EE and the good amount of removal gives us a good probility to win game 1. All gobo/zoo players in my area are very bad and eat wing shards all day becouse they cast spells before attacking. Vs a pro i think the matchup will be 50/50 if not favorable to us.
SIDE:(they bring Kgrip and REB, if they also bring Choke, Trygon and Kgrip maybe needed. vs gobos Needle is more useful than PtoE):
-4 CB
-2 Knight of the Reliquary
+2 PtoE
+2 Finks
+2 WoG
vs Merfolk: This is harder but doable. Vial and Lord must die. I usually cast EE blindly at 1 when i see islands just for vial. Versions without stifle for Wing Shards, EE and fechlands are much easier.
SIDE (They will bring kira to combat our removal, and submerge. Its key to resolve a WOG):
-2 Ponder
-1 CB
-1 Top
-2 Knight of the Reliquary
+2 Spell Pierce
+2 Needle
+2 WoG
vs Combo: First game could be hard couse you have lots of dead cards but a CB or a good counter can make you win. Maybe more SIDE vs combo is needed but there isnt much in my meta.
SIDE (They will bring chain of vapor and more duress chants):
-2 Wings Shards
-4 StoP
-2 Elspeth
+2 Needle (Stops charbelcher, name a fetchland or top vs TES)
+3 Spell Pierce
+2 Trygon
+1 Finks
I do think that 2 or 3 spells with a CMC of 4 are a good way to go.
It helps in the landstill MU, Elspeth also wrecks his Elspeth's when resloved but also yours..
I play Sower, but with so much removal (burn) i went with Lightning Angel(stops aggro cold,is blue for force and ends the game quickly)
Laugh if you will, and i know you will but it is working for me ATM, but still i think it's not optimal as a 4CMC creature.
Suggestions?
If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it.” —Volrath
Founding father of Team Moosebite, the team that really bites.
I like the idea of wing shards quite a bit, but how hard is it to get the double white?
The ideia is great but it is just worth against Progenitus and at the momoment NO/Progenitus did not scare me.Originally Posted by Draener
Super Bizarros Team.
HUEHUEHUE BRBRBR. VIVA DILMA!!! EM NOME DE JESUS CRISTO!
You know what is better than killing CB with Krosan Grip? Not even having to cast it because your opponent is stupid enough to take out the primary reason they beat you. Taking out CB because they have Krosan Grips is the most retarded idea I have ever heard. How are you going to answer all the swords effects that zoo can throw at you? Landstill for instance has tons of mass removal, yet zoo crushes it. And if your bringing in EE you're either going to give K-Grip a target or find yourself getting hit by splash damage when your own Goyfs are on the board. Mass removal is great, but its not a substitute. You need both to beat a consistent agro deck.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
@Wing Shards:
Situational cards are bad. You're talking about removal that is 1W more expensive than your current removal, more dependent on what is happening (the creature has to be attacking) and this is all for a single creature in a single matchup. I'm sorry that just seems dreadful.
I understand it can be good against aggro, but we're talking about slower removal just on the off chance you live long enough to storm the bloody thing to net some sort of advantage. Sideboarding for an advantage against the players you should already beating also seems pretty weak.All gobo/zoo players in my area are very bad and eat wing shards all day because they cast spells before attacking.
Team Technology - Think it's good? Prove it.
I'm not so sure. Goblin players will often drop a goblin on their first main phase as a pump or removal. Wingshards also lets you turn a brainstorm into another swords if you happen to have the mana. It would be sideboard and not more than two, but I could see it useful in enough matchups to be considered.
vs goblins they are not even necessarily casting goblins. Vial and Cycling dont add to storm. Unless they are chaining multiple pile drivers to kill you you wont get much out of shards. Even if it does storm for maybe two or three vs them by that time they have so many guys out they can just sac extra matrons or something that is not atking for lethal. The card is very situational and maybe yes the one time it resolves it gets a Hydra but the game is not even over at that point.
You said this pretty well.
The fact of the matter is that even the situation described as a "good use" for this card is so situational I can't help but think of the many games you will lose from having this in hand even against the decks you want it against.
Team Technology - Think it's good? Prove it.
Besides, CT plays an outrageous number of sorcery-speed cards (Top/Ponder, Creatures/CB), it will be very difficult to play Wing Shards for profit. Better off playing Exile, and that card is shit.
I have 6 MD options to getting rid of Vial, 2 being recursive so don't rely on them using it much. And with all the removal the deck has, they will not have many goblins around so the cycling wont be worth much. Yes its bad vs SGC but every card has its flaws.
It's very easy to 2 for 1 with it. Let's face it, no one expects it.
Anyway for people that don't like Wing Shards, you can do the following changes:
-2 Wing Shards
+2 Oblivion Ring
or
-2 Knight of the Reliquary
-1 Savanah
-2 Wing Shards
+2 Kithcen Finks // RWM
+1 Academy Ruins
+2 Wrath of God
I like Wing Shards more as its easier to cast and I dont like killing my own Tarmo with EE and with WoG. And i like the 2 for 1 vs the Oblivion ring 1-1 (and it gets destroyed a lot). It maybe also interesting to try:
WoG + Finks + Ajani Goldmane instead of Elspeth
Also what people think about Jotun Grunt? I know its seems bad as it dies alone vs any deck that dont use gy. It will die fast as we dont run enough cantrips to sustain it. But almost all decks use the gy or plays tarmo, even combo sometimes gets Tarmo/ Nightstalker sideboard to smash faces. Also it can make Vedalken Shakles better, shrinking Tarmos and Knights to steal them.
What other replacements are there for Wing shards that take care of creatures?
- RWM
- Vedalken Shakles (Easily handled and too slow in todays meta)
- Sower of Temptation (Easily handled and too slow in todays meta)
- Path to Exile (Giving a land can be a huge drawback and CT gets you out of removal)
- Condemn (Conditional and CT gets you out of removal)
- Oblivion Ring
- Giltspire Avenger (Meh)
- Bant Charm (Hard to cast)
- Hail Storm (Doesn't do shit nowadays)
Anything i have forgotten and good enough to test??
Out of color:
- Firespout
- Maelstorm Pulse
- Putrefy
- Smother
- Diabolic Edict
It's worth splashing a 4th color just for extra removal? I dont think so.
Last edited by bokepa; 11-10-2009 at 09:47 AM.
I also feel that having 2 cards with cc 4 helps. Lighting Angel seems hard to cast but i can see it being run in a supreme blue list focused more on agroo and less on control. It will warp more the curve of the deck and good luck with mana denial strategies tho.
I'm just going to ignore the posts with all the Wing Shards talk. Let me share the list with you I played last Sunday at a 42 player tournament, where I ended 7th after 7 rounds of Swiss. It's an adaptation on the Japanese Supreme Blue.
ADHD Toppurz: Sexy Phun, Random Beatz!
Kreaturz:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation
KounturTop:
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Kountur & Kantripz:
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
Kreatur Kontrol:
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Firespout
1 Wrath of God
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Klimat Kontrol (Lendz!):
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarns
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Nantuko Monastery
Konfusy Sideburd:
2 Pithing Needle
1 Stifle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spell Snare
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Wrath of God
1 Umezawa's Jitte
The basics are there: 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Counterbalance, 4 Sensei's Divining Top, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Force of Will and 4 Brainstorm, but every slot that doesn't require being a 4 -of isn't. I like my deck to be as versatile as possible, leaving the option of finding an answer as high as possible. Every card falls into a different strategy, but some cover more. Umezawa´s Jitte is creature control but also lifegaining. Trygon Predator is an enchantment killer but also a creature. And so on and so forth.
I´ll explain a few weird choices in the deck:
Basic Mountain: very bad. I included it because I used to run 3 Volcanic Islands, but I only had 7 fetches at the time. I wanted 8 fetches to reduce the randomness of the deck, so I had to cut a Volcanic Island. The problem then was, what I encountered before, is that a deck like Merfolk would simply Waste my few red sources and I would have no way of casting Firespout. Something you really want against Merfolk. That's why I included a basic Mountain. And it's terribadI might get back on that decision.
Nantuko Monastery: this card in your opening 7 is downright disastrous. But later it's a much better topdeck than any other land. Because it's actually a 4/4 first striker for cmc0, uncounterable, with an upkeep of WG. That's pretty good mid- to lategame, I can tell you.
Wrath of God: this card is an addition to the Firespouts. I used to run 4 Firespout, but then I came to the problem that I saw my Tarmogoyfs and RWM's getting killed, while facing a Tombstalker or Tarmogoyf on the other side of the table. Firespout does absolutely nothing against those big boys, but God does. Thanks to insanely broken Sensei's Divining Top + 8 fetchlands, it's reasonably ok to find. Next to that you also have 4 Brainstorms and 1 Ponder. Game 2, you can side an extra WoG in, and you can mull to a hand which is likely to find a WoG or has a WoG, because against some decks, a resolved WoG with CounterTop in play = win.
The sideboard: how Nassifish is that, huh? As I said before, I like multiple options. I'm going to try and fit a Gaddock Teeg in, and the obvious thing to go would be a Pithing Needle, because, let's face it, there are 2 in there. But I'm not sure, because Pithing Needle is a must have against our most difficult match-up: Landstill. So, something else is likely to be dropped. Probably Hydroblast.
As for a very short tournament report:
Round 1: Supreme Blue: Draw.
Round 2: Enchantress: Win.
Round 3: Tempo Thresh: Draw.
Round 4: ANT: Win.
Round 5: Landstill: Draw.
Round 6: Soa'S (UGRW CounterTop): Win.
Round 7: Eva Green: Win.
So I ended 4-0-3: I have not lost a single match. Quite good for a random list, huh?
P.S. As for you guys keeping track of meta and whatnot. That's 2 CounterTop decks I encountered, having played one myself, that number is actually 3. Who says CounterTop is on the decline? It's on the rise, I can tell you! There was some Merfolk in the tournament, but only 3 lists or so. Merfolk is on the decline here because of Supreme Blue.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
No zoo match-ups there I see. Have you tested your list against zoo? How does your list fair?
Zoo has proven to be a very positive matchup for Firespout/CBT decks at least per our testing.
Yes, I've tested against Zoo. In other tournaments I also played against Zoo with a different version of Supreme Blue, where RWM proved to be solid gold. Another important thing is to stop Pridemage, so you can lock them with CounterTop. If you can't stop Pridemage, you're in for a heap of trouble, but then again, you're probably doing it wrong
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
So at the earliest your answers to vial come online turn 2 (excluding FoW) and thats if you spend your first two turns killing it with EE. If you use pridemage you can kill it turn three by which they can already cast possibly 2 dudes. Im not saying those are bad answers to vial im just saying that if you are dedicating your early turns dealing with vial you are not going to have time to cast your 3 CC sorcery
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