I slapped together Pulp Fiction's list. Only change is I turned the Scrubland into a Misty Rainforest (recommendation by Bahamut, I think, a few pages back). I plan on playing it all night tonight since I haven't played it in a couple of weeks.
There's a tournament tomorrow that I might play in. I can already tell that I am not going to like the Sideboard though, but we'll see.
The only reason I am debating on playing or not is because it's a $15 entry and the prize is just a dual land. Plus there's not a huge Legacy following around here, so I'm not even sure if the tournament will make.
Oh, I did have a question though. If they go Island -> Tap, Extract, name Tendrils. Do I just lose?
Yes.Originally Posted by P.S.
Yes. But you can always run Grapeshot+Helm in sb.
And , in any case, it's better not to run BWish and to lose to Extract than to run Burning Wish, to not lose to Extract but to roll over from many other cards.
Anyone willing to answer my previous post? Come on, I'd ask it on the StormBoards but the avg quantity of posts written there is something like 0.10
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Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
My team has been playing a straight ANT list (14 land, 3 Mox 8 protection and the rest 4-offs) for quite some time before switching to the hybrid. I disagree with you that Ad Nauseam is completely suboptimal. I dare say it's as good if not better in this version than in straight ANT (I'm assuming a list without Tops for ANT) . The Tops make Ad Nauseam much better. It really helps.
I wouldn't run a 3th Mox. In fact, I wouldn't run a Mox at all if I didn't play AdN. They seriously suck. You almost never want to draw into one.
Rain of Filth is a decent card, but it doesn't go too well with AdN, because you have AdN to have a plan to be fast in those matchups where you can goldfish (or race random hate). I board out AdN with a lot of accel against pretty much every deck running blue.
I don't think Tempo Thresh will often board more than 2 Krosan Grip. Also, it's not always that much of a big deal when they Grip Top. You can very often win via regular IGG anyway, because you get so much time to resolve a Chant.
Merfolk is kind of annoying. I don't think Top is too slow though. Merfolk won't always be that fast. I don't know, every time I lose to Merfolk, they get insane hands with T1 Catcher T2 Lord T3 Catcher Lord with FoW in hand or something. You're probably not going to beat that often (although you certainly can). Regularly they will just drop turn 1 Vial and do nothing Turn 2 giving you a pretty huge window of time to play and abuse Top.
I started out with a 3c list as well, but honestly, I just went with 4c for Grip because there was almost no reason not to. I'm not very fond of basics at all. Those times you do face Tempo Thresh, which is really the only place you would want the basics (except for random crap like Dragon Stompy or Stax). Even in those matchups, I often find myself just fetching for Duals anyway, because there's little point in fetching basics when you're holding Sea or Tundra. I think the basic Island is important, because it allows you to keep cantripping, but the others (Plains and Swamp) are terrible draws, which is why I don't play them in the mainboard.
For the sideboard, mine is a little different from the lists you see here, because we run a 4-off that kind of fills the purpose of the basic land and the plan against Wasteland. For that reason I cut the basic Plains, but I would suggest it for a regular sideboard.
I suppose you could play Disenchant if there's an abundance of Stax in your meta. This isn't the case over here, so I wouldn't run those. 2 Slaughter Pact seems a bit random too. I'd rather have more bounce instead. I also like Truth more than Chain, but it seems that I'm the only one in that (might be because of Solidarity, where the card was wonderfull).
Unless you have a lot of mainboard CB in your meta, I wouldn't run the bounce mainboard. I generally hate drawing into it and it makes your AdN significantly worse. As I also said, I don't like the Swamp in the mainboard, and I don't like the Scrubland either, although it's not that bad. I cut them both for more fetchland. Running 10 fetchland is pretty good, perhaps you should try it.
As for Extract, yea you lose when the opponent has one (except for the extremely rare occasion where you're holding the Tendrills). I don't really care. It's a decent sideboard slot as a 1-off for Mystical I suppose, if you're expecting that much storm.
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
I am not expecting Storm at all. I am expecting people that have Islands to just slap Extract in their Sideboard when someone shows up without a creature deck though. That's the price you pay when playing in a smaller area, I suppose.
I was considering putting a second Tendrils in the Sideboard for solely that reason.
I just played against Dreadstill.
And he played Extract.
Ok, I'll shut up.
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@Piceli89: Do you want to know how I sideboard with the list against blue? I posted it over on the Stormboards and I can post it over here if you want. Boarding into more DD and turning the deck into DDFT is the best strategy I have found against blue control. Ad Nauseam is usually worthless after turn 4 and especially worthless after you have more Grips in the deck so thats why it gets cut. Don't worry about them casting KGrip on Top, who cares, you have 3 more and 4 Brainstorm (and 2 Ponder depending on the list) and they also have to worry about Chant + IGG loop so you have a lot of different angles to come at them from. AdN from my experience just sucks in the blue matchups.
I would not ever play AdN without Chrome Mox, if you want to run Rain of Filth in addition to Moxen go ahead but it is largely worthless unless gaining threshold for CRit and it does not sustain the IGG Loop unless you have a shit ton of lands in play.
Why not play the 4th color? It really doesn't hurt you at all. Green has way to much to offer and I have been locked out of games before with Wipe Away so ... Grip is a must IMOP.
@ P.S.: SB is all meta-dependent man. I only post mine because this is what works in my meta, build it according to your own specifications based on what decks you are more likely to play against.
EtW is an out to Extract as well as Grapeshot+Helm. But seriously, if someone is dumb enough to play Extract .... more power to them, other matchups will suffer with this garbage in the SB. It is a lot like Mindbreak Trap, largely irrelevant and takes up SB slots. It isn't like storm combo is everywhere, but if some goober really feels the need to have a marginalized card that is only good in one matchup and run it as a 3-4of in their SB only to be met with Chant + win .... I guess that is their choice. Don't worry about Extract nor should you play it, SB slots are already tight as it is.
@lorddotm: I really don't like those lists at all. I hate LEDless but still, what were the matchups this thing beat in taking first place?
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
2 Merfolk, 1 CB/Top, 2 TES, 1 Ichorid, 1 Goblins, 1 Dreadstill
I agree, I personally don't really like this list, but it did put up the result, so maybe its worth looking at (he got it from a friend in Portland who supposedly is doing really well with the list).
And could you post your sideboarding for every matchup?
I don't have your exact sideboard, but it would be helpful in seeing what you thing is worth it (I'm actually making a transition from TES to PFH (I dubbed the UBwg AdN/DD Hybrid PFH or pulp_fiction Hybrid).
Lastly, what kind of metagame would TES be better in than PFH or NLS. And where is NLS better than PFH and vise versa.
Bahamuth and PF: thanks to both for the answers. My concerns are essentially about the 4th colour and Merfolks. I played some matches against Countertop shits and I felt the really difference between destroying CB and bouncing it, and that's pretty much an abysmal difference. I also like the fact that green opens Xantid Swarm, which is really a huge tool against Merfolks. But i think I'm nOT going to pack the single Bayou, because I like to have as much U-lands as possible to cantrip. Perhaps a configuration like this:
8 fetchlands
2 USea
2 Tundras
1 Scrubland (too good to me not to be included, there have been many times when I needed it).
1 Tropical
1 Island
Could work fine. Of course there's another Trop in the side to help against those matchups where I'd heavily board in green cards. And so we come to Merfolks, and all the doubts i have reguarding this matchup:
I noticed that you are used to board out AdNauseam in favor of a straight DD configuration. But Doomsday, despites requiring less acceleration pieces, is almost always a SDT dependant engine. Ok, you have other cantrips, but i'm used to abuse BS and Ponder as setup spells to build the combo hand , not to keep them in favor of a future Doomsday. The point I've noticed several times is that sometimes straight Doomsday isn't the best option against Blue: you open hands with several protections and accelerations, and a Mystical. Now, in this case AdNauseam would be an instant auto-win if cast early, while with DD i have to wait until i find a cantrip. I'm really unsure about the effectiveness of this SB strategy, especially against decks packing a fast clock ala Merfolks. Also, the other thing which makes me a bit skeleptical about sb'ing out AdN against Merfolks is that we're NOT usually going to board in KGrips, but, on the cotnrary, we're also boarding out that single one maindeck in favor of Chain of Vapor, Xantid Swarm /PoN or even a Slaughter Pact (you'll laugh, but it gets rid of Cursecatcher, which is a really important factor). So the deck's manacurve gets even lower, meaning AdNauseam could be more performing.
Also, concerning the Sideboard: I think that 3x Krosan Grip in sb in addition to the one already MD are just too much. I'm also perplex about the lack of Wipe Away because there are times against certain decks when they have a CB OR a HateBear (sided in), so Wipe Away in here is a hit-both, while with only KGrips you're forced to sb in more anti-hate cards like Slaughter Pact. The decks I'm referring to are the usual crap like Bant which usually board in Gaddock Teeg, and play CB maindeck (well, it seems at least that Bant's trend in these last times is to go more towards the aggroish direction, luckily).
About the basics land in the sideboard: plains or swamp? While plains is really great because it's the powerhouse from which all our 6 chants are cast, against Tempo Threshold and Merfolks, Swamp is more important because is the colour which give access to the real combo cards, and the storm engines. I'm also thinking that there are (few, but still existing) situations when having a Swamp is a good thing, i.e. against Moon effects. But I'll guess it's a risk to be run.
So, i'll hope we can talk a bit about why to sb and not to sb certain cards against these matchups. As for now, by packing green i crafted this sideboard (considering that Stax seems to show up quite regularly in my meta):
1 Plains/Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Chain of vapor
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Disenchant
1 Pact of Negation
2 Doomsday
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Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
When playing this list:
4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Ponder
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Silence
2x Chrome Mox
1x Tendrils
1x Krosan Grip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
Sideboard
3x Krosan Grip
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
1x Silence
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Plains
This is how I would board against blue control without CB:
-2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 KGrip, -1 Lotus Petal and +2 Doomsday, +2 Swarm, +1 Silence
Against Thresh with CB in it:
-2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 IT, -2 Lotus Petal and +2 Doomsday, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 Silence
I also will intermittently bring in 1-2 Swarms in this matchup. The people I play against expect that I will just bring it in and sometimes I do, but the count usually varies, I just try to mix it up and keep them on their toes so they keep their pointless StPs in!
And if it is against Canadian -1 Bayou and +1 Plains OR you can cut an additional Lotus Petal or Cabal Ritual for the Plains upping land count to 16.
Against Merfolk:
-1 Ad Nauseam, -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Grip, -2 Petal, and +2 Swarm, +1 Silence, +1 Plains, and +2 Doomsday. This is where Swarm shines, they have no possible answer for it
Aggro is basically all the same but it depends on what you expect, just cut Krosan Grip first then any number of Chants (unless you expect Mindbreak Trap) and put in Disenchants and Chains and Slaughter Pact to handle Teeg, Null Rod, Pyrostatic Pillar, etc.
Against combo mirror:
-1 Petal/Chrome Mox, -1 Grip, -1 Ponder and +2 Swarm and +1 Silence. Some people like Grip here to handle Top or artifacts dropped early or on mistake but I don't think it is worth it, the only time you will kill an LED is if they are trying to play 2 of them, you never get priotiry unless they are stupid and play LED then Dark Ritual ... even then, Grip fucks up AdN by adding a bunch of +3 CC to the mix.
Just something of note, emidln mentioned on the stormboards that he always like to up the land count to 16 in the blue matchups. Also something to consider, just try everything and see what works for you. In some matchups you may prefer having 4x Lotus Petals and no Cabal Rituals, this is just how I like to board, there really isn’t a 100% correct way to SB, just what works for you and wins games!
@lorddotm: I like PFH
This SB is slightly tweaked from last time I played. Running 3x Grip I lost 2 games in a row due to an inability to find the damn thing while looking at a shuffled top 3 around 4 times and a Ponder … so I upped it to 4. Cutting down on the Swarm count, oftentimes the threat is enough and I would much prefer to board in 1x Swarm and 1x Silence against Thresh and having the 7th Chant against Landstill just makes the matchup that much easier.
I currently have a ton of work to do, and I will address the stuff asked a little earlier when I finish.
Last edited by Pulp_Fiction; 11-15-2009 at 09:19 PM.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Hello all, I'd like to talk to Kim Kluck about his list, which is in my opinion the best one, does anybody meet him or knows his name.
Thanks.
i agree, kim list is awesome and i would like to know which card is the 15th in his sb from Magickeller Hannover tournment in september
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29258
thanxs
Last edited by bulaxas; 11-19-2009 at 06:56 AM.
I'd like somebody to explain me how exactly to sideboard with the deck ANT from Klim about the link above, vs the different decks in the meta:
canadian
counterbalance decks
landstill
moon /stax
team america
B/W deadguyale
...
thanks
Why does he run Grips in his board? does wipeaway not accomplish the same thing without having to being in an extra land and mess with the mana base? If you want to add lands to the SB for some MUs fine but adding green just seems greedy.
Also is the plan if you are running Confidant in your SB to generate card advantage and then ritual ritual cantrip tendrils for a few and then generate more advantage with Confidant and do it again in 1 or 2 turns? If so then i would recommend adding at least 1 more tendrils to the board so you can accomplish this.
Wipe is temporary. Grip is permanent. It's really not a big deal between fetches and Lotus Petal.
One reason to run Confidant I've found is to have them board out their creature hate and then you bring them in. They act as a mini Ad Nauseam and also put a small clock on them. Between attacking for 2 and getting an extra card a turn, you can easily steal game 2.
Going Underground Sea, Dark Ritual, Duress, Dark Confidant is priceless.
On a dedicated Ad Nauseam it looks fine, everything is optimized for minimal damage with Ad Nauseam. I always wondered why people stopped using it.
In my experience, Dark Confidant is best against dedicated control, which is nearly extinct. It's great but also slow; it takes full two turns to draw an extra card, and the metagame is ripe with decks that will have attacked with multiple 2/3's or Goyf/Stalker by that time.
Basically, it's a mini-AdN that takes a few turns to go online easily take forever to go online in a metagame where that's not fast enough against many decks.
Plus, Silence got printed.
I think it's boarded for that reason. It wouldn't come in against decks with tons of removal, like versus Zoo or something it's clearly never going to come in. Versus dedicated control it shines, but also decks like Canadian Thresh or Eva Green or something, they might board out a chunk of their limited removal, then it could come in to dig you into a strong enough grip to go off.
TPDMC
That's my point, CThresh or Eva Green can both start attacking early. Three turns is a long time against an opponent with Goyfs, Stalkers, and disruption. They'll be happy you're not drawing cards now but later, and swing in.
Sure, t1 it's great ... but maybe you just paid a card to get additional cards a turn earlier (admittedly, quite possibly with one less storm copy necessary).
Two ANT decks in the Worlds 2009 Top4
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...68&postcount=1
One UB Mainboard + G sideboard for Krosan Grip, the other UBW Mainboard + R sideboard for Blasts
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